BIG V shake up needed

[from the cheap seats]

The lastest news from Big V is that Dandenong and Sandringham have both pulled out of Championship men. But whats even bigger is that all the SEABL clubs have withdrawn thier Youth League teams and put them into the new SEABL U23 comp. Did it all start a couple of weeks ago when Geelong pulled out thier YL women team? Are they also in the SEABL U23 comp?
So much for the two leagues working together for the betterment of the game. The Big V managment have been blind sided by a smart bunch. In the words of BIG BROTHER, its time to go Brad Noonan.................
Obviously he is incapable of managing Big V and needs to be replaced by someone with more balls and better skills. I am not sure of his background but he couldnt have been a senoir manger with any decent organisation. Weak as water !!
As for the clubs that have left, I think people need to look hard at who is involved with these organisations and understand just who has screwed who here. Far to many conflict of interest situations for my liking. Its time that Basketball Victoria but more importantly Basketball Australia made a stand here. BV needs to treat these clubs with the same disrespect they showed Big V and have the guts to make a stand. Big Brother agian says.....its time to go Charles...........
We can only hope that thier EGOS are bigger than thier bank books and they come crawling back to Big V, but then only a weakling would take them back. Make your bed and lie in it. (correct spelling of LIE ). WHat would be more fun to watch would be Dandenong and Sandrinham getting pumped week in week out. Bu I am sure that they will buy thier way into being competative. Fat cheque books but even fatter ego's. See which last's longer.

[Hoopdog]

Pfft.. what a load of garbage.. Big V are/were their own worst enemy, too small minded...
Ultimately teams should and do want to compete at the highest level, SEABL provides that, if champ Big V falls over so be it, SEABL will continue to grow and get stonger which is great news not only for Victorian teams but for basketball on the Eastern sea board in general.

[from the cheap seats]

I dont disagree with you for the most part. Its why I say Noonan must go. I am simply saying that these two clubs LIED to Big V and the other clubs when they said they would not do what they just did. The SEABL board also had a hand in it when they agreed to work with Big V during 2009 to come up with a good sloution to the problems. I dont deny anyone wanting to play in the higher league but when agreements were made and plans were in motion what they did was not in the spirit of the agreement.
For Big V to move forward it needs to have strong managment with vision and focus. I am sure there is room for both leagues to coexist. I am not anti SEABL. I am just pro Big V.

[patm]

(correct spelling of LIE )
That may be the case, but you still need to work on your "to's" and "too's". :wink:

Also, do you mind providing a translation of those big brother references. :roll:
Having never seen the show I have absolutely no idea what you mean.

[Hoopdog]

Yes, there is only room for 1 elite club league.. SEABL is now it, and lets be honest, allways was.. SEABL existed before BigV champ started, maybe starting big v champ was a silly idea?
Big V will continue to survive and provide a competition for lower levels of competition, it needs to survive and will, but the pathway is now much clearer for everyone concerned.

[George the Gragon]

Both Sandringham and Dandenong have moved all their teams, men and women to SEABL. In the talks between the leagues the two clubs asked for an extension of time to declare where they would play in 2009. November 30th was the cut off date so this week was the last week.

These two clubs were the only two supporting the quest for a new league hence when that became lost in politics they were left with making a decision. One person does not make that decision but a board or committee.

[The Source]

Interesting stuff. If "From the cheap seats" post is true then the ramifications of these moves are potentially enormous.
Firstly, not only have Dandy and Sandy blindsided the Big V management, they have blindsided the Big V members. From my understanding, there was no mention that the teams were considering making the move at the Big V agm and further to that, I believe that all the Big V Championship clubs met prior to the agm and made something of a pact, agreement etc as to them putting a massive unified effort in to 2009 in order to improve the overall quality of Big V Championship in 2009 and onwards. Now if that were true, I would be filthy at Dandy and Sandy for making such a move now. I would have absolutely no doubt that clubs have made plans, arrangements etc for 2009 based on the understanding from that meeting and from the decisions made at the agm. Do the 2 clubs moves leave them open to legal action as a result of this? Have their actions cost any other Big V Championship clubs money as a result? Would be interesting to test it. It's also interesting that Dandenong have basically shat on Big V just after they acquired the Big V preseason tournament too.

Is the new SEABL U/23 comp state based or do all clubs field teams? Can all the SEABL clubs now afford to transport senior and U/23 teams interstate? Thats a massive cost increase. If the SEABL have indeed gone and made their own Vic based under 23 competition then I would have to agree with Cheap Seats and hope or even demand that BV and BA act swiftly and strongly. An SEABL U/23 competition would be in direct conflict with Big V Youth League which I believe is the official development pathway competition of BV. Correct me if I am wrong, Big V is conducted as the official State based competition under the governance of BV. SEABL is allowed to operate as an affiliate of BA because it incorporates multiple states. So surely BA would not support a new competition that weakens what is an incredibly strong development structure in the Big V Youth League?
I wonder how SEABL intend to officiate a competition that is competing with BV's official competition? Will BV allow their accredited referees or scorebench officials to particiapte in the competition? I dare say they would not. And if some renegade referees decide to join in, take away their accreditation. Don't allow them to officiate in any BV or BA competitions. Nice and simple.

It will be interesting to see if these rumours have any substance to them

[Hoopdog]

Im led to believe BA are in full support of the new SEABL Senior/Dev structure.
Im equally sure the officials will be able to opperate in SEABL without issue, in fact im hearing there will no longer be a split of officials between Seabl/big V so SEABL should see the best officials week in week out, and hopefully 3 man mechanics.

[from the cheap seats]

I agree with "the source" but I doubt Noonan has the balls to stand up the the SEABL board. As for Hoopdog , you are obviously a strong SEABL supporter from a SEABL club. Good luck to you but you have just let two VERY untrustworthy clubs into your competition. Lets se who shits on who now.

Brad Noonan stand up and be counted, TAKE THE BIG V PRESEAON COMP OFF DANDENONG. Only a total fool would fail to see the set up here. Is Dandenong using the potential revenue windfall from the tournament to get into SEABL ????

If BV is really interested in building a sustainable state based league then Wayne Bird, you to need to declare your intentions and prove to the poeple who you represent that your are serious about it.

I urge all BIG V supporters to email both Brad Noonan and Wayne Bird (email addresses on the Big V and BV websites) and demand action to be taken. Have a voice and stand up for your competition.

[highsocks]

Does this include Dandy's and Sandy's Womens sides as well. It certainly would make Broady's side look to have the championship in the bag.

[from the cheap seats]

According to my source its ALL teams, mens, womens and youth league. George the Gragon is on the inside at Dandeneong and he says all too (happy now PATM).

Here is another way to make a point...........

BIG V clubs, stand up for your competition and BOYCOT the Dandenong Preseason Tournament. I bet I know a few other clubs who would be more than capable and willing to host it, even at such short notice. Club delegats and coaches get on the phone and start making calls, get organised.

[George the Gragon]

A fair bit of hysteria here.

The new league concept would have ended Big V championship any way. The new league had no support among Big V clubs other than the two "renegades". The meeting resolved little about the league except that Big V was going to promote their championship league and hoped to attract SEABL teams. Sandringham have said right from the beginning that they were going to SEABL in 2010. Both Sabres and Rangers held out hope for a new league and so held off going to SEABL until now. Once it became obvious that Big V did not want a bar of the new league Dandenong moved and so Sandringham felt they should go as well.

At the Big V AGM there was to be furher discussion about the new league concept but it never eventuated.

The SEABL D league came about in 2009 instead of 2010 because Big V reduced the number of games but increased the costs. SEABL D league is half the cost of Big V YL - don't know why.

I won't be surprised if the Rangers lose the pre season tournament. Maybe it could be played at one of the loyal Big V clubs.

[mama k]

From the cheap seats - do you not realise or recall that Dandenong actually left SEABL (maybe 5 years ago, not sure exactly when) to join the "almighty" Big V competition, so I would think now they are returning with their tails between the legs, with Sandringham following. The SEABL clubs are extremely strong individually and collectively as a group. They are a conference of the ABA, and have been around many more years than the Big V, so why are you bashing on them as if they are the bad guys.
Dandenong were in SEABL league and thought they could create their own little monopoly in a different league, lost players and are now back in SEABL. This is how it looks from the outside anyhow.
In terms of your question about why BA would support a move by SEABL to create their own development structure, well buddy I think you answered that question yourself by your comments on the administration of Big V currently. And if the costings as stated by george are correct, money plays a big part in these decisions.
And why on earth would you think that SEABL would have trouble getting officials?? You make it sound like they're an underground league or something?? And "renegade referees"....talk to any refs and I bet you 90% of them would say that SEABL is the best competition - the other 10% are probably lazy and don't have high aspiration for themselves. Think you need to go look at the history and standard of the league before you start sprouting off. I understand that you're pro Big V but you sound silly.
For the past couple of years, both leagues have been able to get refs and scoretable officials - some who actually work in both leagues, so its not work for only one and not the other.
If memory serves me correct, Big V was created after the senior Wednesday night league stopped in at Albert Park/MSAC, while SEABL has been running since 1984 (I think), so who's the new kid on the block here, who's the new competition??
The Youth League concept has been successful for Big V, but it sounds like that's the only division that has been and that's because of the SEABL clubs teams participating. So if the administration is as bad as you claim it is, then why would any club wish to stay when it can move to a more professional outfit that provides greater competition at a cheaper price??

[patm]

According to my source its ALL teams, mens, womens and youth league. George the Gragon is on the inside at Dandeneong and he says all too (happy now PATM).
Actually I was only trying to add a little humour to your play on words - having nothing else of substance to contribute on this matter that very much interests me - although I would still like to understand the big brotherism's :?

As a spectator, it will be good to be able to watch all the top local clubs competing against each other at all levels.

As an observor of organisational structures and processes, I hate this BigV versus SEABL thing. Along with the instability in the NBL and WNBL. None of it can be good for the sport of basketball.

I remember when Dandenong left the SEABL.
The official line was, we are doing this to provide a pathway for our juniors through to seniors, not for any other reason.
Although EVERYONE else believed it was to reduce the hemorrhaging from their financial difficulties.
So I wonder what is different now?
Is it that the finances are more under control, with volleyball revenues and club dba losses gone?
Or does SEABL now provide a better pathway for juniors through to seniors?
One person does not make that decision but a board or committee.
Yeah right.

[George the Gragon]

One person does not make that decision but a board or committee.
Yeah right.

So you think Boards or Committees are irrelevant?

I would be most surprised if one person made the decision in the case of either Club without propoer consideration of the cost increases.

[sundy]

interstate competition for under 23's is great for basketball, the players of these youth league teams would be pumped to be playing interstate. Yeah it probably wasn't handled the best way by the clubs AND the Big V, but at the end of the day its a great step forward for elite development in this country.

[patm]

So you think Boards or Committees are irrelevant?
I would be most surprised if one person made the decision in the case of either Club without propoer consideration of the cost increases.
Irrelevant is probably too strong a word.
But some or more compliant than others.

[grass_rooted]

Fact is with any Board decision there is an instigator and then a recommender. In the absence of any real depth of knowledge, most Boards, given they are primarily volunteers, will follow the recommendation of their Chairmman or GM. It's very easy then for the instigator and recommender to hide behind the protection of a "Board Decision".

[The Source]

sundy - I'm not sure how you can say that a SEABL U/23's competition is good for basketball. If it is allowed to go ahead it basically monopolizes elite basketball in Victoria to the 6 or 7 "Power" clubs. No other club or association will have the opportunity to participate unless they have the ability to field 4 SEABL teams and even then, SEABL can pick and choose who to allow in. Sure it makes life even easier if you are 1 of the current SEABL associations but it has the potential to ruin the programs of many other clubs and associations. It's a case of the rich getting richer at the expense of everyone else. What's next? Do they break away from the VJBL and start their own junior competition?????

[from the cheap seats]

Lets see what today brings and how long it takes the Big V League office to inform its members of the fiasco and how it will effect the comming season. This is the time for strong leadership and professional communication, unfortunatley something Big V has been lacking so far.

MamaK. I am not crtisizing SEABL so much as the snakes at Dandenong and Sandrinham. The fact remains that an agreement was in place to work though the situation in 2009 and they broke that ageement. If I am wrong then maybe a public statement by Mr Ryan can clear it up. As for SEABL being a cheaper competition thats just not true. The cost to get into SEABL is vastly more then Big V. If the U23 comp is less than Big V then how long will it be before the cost of that rises and once again forces clubs out of the comp.

As for all those one eyed fools who think this is good then you are sadly mistaken. Basketball needs a strong state based elite competition. There are plenty of associations capable of fielding very competative teams and they need to play. By restricting the number of opportunities you are also limiting the ability of juniors to climb the ranks. If SEABL want so be a NBL "D" League then so be it but do it properly and have the NBL put money into it and forge alliances with the clubs. Stripping the states of the premier competition is not going to help. Also a few interstate teams in a Victoria dominated competition does not make it a national league. I bet HOOPDOG also barracks for Collingwood and thinks that if every other team folded it would be great as they would win a flag.......yeah right. Pull your head in unless you can contribute at a meaningfull level.

By creating super clubs you risk narrowing the fields of opportunity for players. They simply become little fish in a big pond. We all know the politics that goes on at most of these "power clubs" so dont think that you are going to have a good time if the smaller clubs fade away.
And before you all jump on the bandwagon and try to beat me up, NOT ONE of the contributors to this thread have actually explained WHY this is good. You all say it is but explain why.......
SUNDY seems to think its good just because the U23's get to fly around the country. So all you people who say that Big V is dead or irrelivent, explain why this is good and try to do so with clarity and common sense.

[patm]

NOT ONE of the contributors to this thread have actually explained WHY this is good. You all say it is but explain why.......
I am not exactly sure whether I am one of the "one eyed fools" or not?

But I thought I did explain why I liked it (which means why it is good for me).
It is as simple as being able to watch the clubs I want to watch play against each other - which I could not do before.
And while there are other teams I like to watch in the BigV, they are not in the championship level, so never get to play against each other anyway.
I also noted that I hate all this petty fighting between multiple leagues when multiple leagues should not exist in the first place.

However if you think I am going to make the slightest difference by going down to my local association, or even to the state or national body’s, and registering my objection to what is going on, why would I waste my time?
I’ve tried that before – on a far less important matter - and am still living with the consequences – and I achieved nothing positive either.
This matter is just another symptom of the quality of leadership in our sport in this country.
And it’s the lack of quality leadership at the top that allows certain individuals, and others like them, to hijack certain parts of the sport to suit their own personal agenda’s. Definitely not for the betterment of basketball generally.
Yet targeting those people is not going to solve things either – they are a symptom of the problem – not the cause.
They could not do what they are doing if basketball at the national level had strong leadership and did not permit it to happen.
Similarly with the GM of BigV – no matter how good he might or might not be – he cannot resolve this matter – it is beyond his position.
Only dealing with the weakness at the top of our sport can this matter and others be resolved.
And while the solution in theory is simple – I have no idea who or when this will happen – if ever.
And this “us and them” stuff needs to be kept on the court, and not be continually played out in the running of our sport.

[coach_me]

Couple of things after reading all this over the past few days.

Is it a fact the U23's will be travelling to all SEABL teams ? As I wouldnt see some of the Tasmanian teams, nor some of the country teams having U23's. IMO I dont see the U23 comp travelling outside of Victoria.

I might be wrong but the Big V and SEABL are both divisions of the ABA roster. I dont understand all the war of words pitting the two leagues against each other. Teams that play in each division do so for their own reasons. Is it really that important ? Or are people just annoyed that Dandenong tend to make waves then jump ship from SEABL to Big V then back again when it suits them ?

Both the Big V and SEABL have their strengths and players that want to stay in Victoria will play Big V, those that dont mind some travel will play SEABL.

But keep up the war of words as some of us find thos ewith narrow minds very funny. :lol:

[The Source]

coach_me - Just to clarify, there is no longer an ABA. South Australia pulled out and as result the ABA was disbanded. Teams no longer play for a National Championship. SEABL play for the SEABL title, Big V play for the Victorian Championship, Waratah for the NSW Championship etc.

I have no problem with SEABL. It allows teams such as the AIS, Tassie teams, Albury, etc compete in a suitable competition that would otherwise be out of their reach. If we went to a strict state based competition then all of a sudden those teams would be required to compete in their respective state based competitions which opens up another can of worms.

The main problem is with SEABL starting its own U/23 league in direct competition with the current structure. Dandenong and Sandringham jumping ship whilst being very poor form, is not the end of the world. Big V Championship can easily recover there and move forward. The U/23 comp has far greater consequences that affect all Victorian associations.
And just going back to Mama K's reply, I didn't say that SEABL would have any problem attracting referees, I suggested that BV has the ability to deny them access to these officials and should do so in order to bring them in to line.

[mama k]

And just going back to Mama K's reply, I didn't say that SEABL would have any problem attracting referees, I suggested that BV has the ability to deny them access to these officials and should do so in order to bring them in to line.

What have the refs done that is so wrong - they haven't decided that SEABL should enter an u/23 comp, that's got nothing to do with them at all. The refs have done nothing wrong - so what's the need to bring them into line??

Also when was the ABA disbanded - didn't they have their nationals finals this year at MSAC??

I agree with coach_me - i don't think the interstate teams will add an under 23 team - neither tassie not albury could field womens or mens team in u23 - they struggle enough as it is. Ballarat and Bendigo might - but I wouldn't be too sure about that.

Well "from the cheap seats", one of the possibilites as to why this is a good thing will enable better rostering of games for clubs. It is common now for Youth League and their respective SEABL teams to have one playing at home and the other away. With better fixturing, the mens u/23 can play before the seniors, therefore allowing clubs to have younger players suit up for their SEABL team, after they've played majority of the u/23 game. Better pathway for development than the current practice of shipping players off to college after youth league instead of going into SEABL. Also as you stated the Big V is struggling with its ability to adminstrate - so if clubs decide to move, then they'll still be playing against most of the teams they were in youth league with better admin and fixturing and pathways for players.
Wouldn't trust anything from Mr Ryan - so don't hold your breath waiting for a statement from him.
With regards to the cost, maybe if clubs are already in they don't have to pay substantially much more to add further teams.

In terms of a strong state based elite competition - why does basketball need this? Those associations able to field competitive teams still can - in what will remain the Big V - from what I understand.
Basketball Victoria stripped the state based wednesday night comp years back in an attempt to compete with SEABL - trying to monopolise their strong market.

I would argue that the Division 1, 2 etc in the Big V still needs to remain, thereby still providing fields of opportunity for players. However, what Big V championship has shown is that if you try to have a competition without "power clubs" (as you call them), then there is a huge disparity in the quality of competition - as shown by the 3 horse race in the Big V men this year. There's need to be a tiered systerm in order to accommodate for the range of abilities that teams have.

[The Source]

Mama K - Refs have done nothing wrong. I'm saying BV should deny SEABL access to accredited referees for the U/23 comp as it is detrimental to the overall current infrastructure of basketball.

[The Source]

Mama K - Here is one for you. If I'm not wrong, you are a geelong supporter, associate etc. How does Geelong see this as they have the Supercats that are independantly run in SEABL and also the GABA run Womens Championship and Div 1 men and youth league teams? So now the development stream that the Supercats have been utilisng to gather future talent from will potentially compete in an inferior league. Do Supercats start up their own U/23 team in direct competition to GABA?

[from the cheap seats]

Maybe someone can tell me the cost for entering the SEABL comp at both the senior level and the new U23 comp. The website has NOTHING about it at all. No info on the new U23 comp at all which I find strange. Plus there is talk about some SEABL teams not going on with it due to the increased cost's (travel & accom).

[mama k]

Source - i'm not from Geelong at all, you might be getting me confused with mama b, I think she's from geelong. So I don't know how it would affect Geelong's set up.
I would be surprised if BV could actually restrict the use of refs for the SEABL u/23 comp.

[George the Gragon]

SEABL D league will only have some Victorian teams (not all Victorian teams) in it in 2009. I'm told the cost of this competition is half of the Big V youth league cost and the teams play more games.

With Sandringham and Dandenong opting for SEABL the costs of the senior competition will be reduced from the $55000 for two teams but I don't know by how much.

These changes are still not approved yet so let's see what happens this week.

[The Source]

My bad. Too many Mamas around here

[from the cheap seats]

Thanks George.

Now you can see why Big V management sucks. If this is the way it is then SEABL reduce the cost's as more team enter. Big V on the other dont, they simply increase them with the CPI index. I can tell you for a fact that in YL Big V there were more team entering in 2009 and the fees did not reduce. But how else do we pay for the exec who does nothing !!

YLM in Big V has an affiliation cost of about $5200. Based on that I would not imagine that the new SEABL U23 cost is half of that but you never know.

[jake11]

Really the BIG V should just do an A-League type rebadging exercise and call itself the CVIBL!!!!!

[from the cheap seats]

Now there is a blast from the past that not to many will understand.

[George the Gragon]

CVIBL - ah, those were the days!! Great competition with strong country clubs and the smaller city clubs. Eddie Cox, Ken Henry, Scott Roberts, the list goes on.

Big V YL men - $5800
Big V YL women - 4300

In starting their own D league the SEABL clubs will save around $5000 on my information.

[from the cheap seats]

Stop George Iam getting a tear in my eye :cry: :(

[from the cheap seats]

CVIBL - ah, those were the days!! Great competition with strong country clubs and the smaller city clubs. Eddie Cox, Ken Henry, Scott Roberts, the list goes on.

Big V YL men - $5800
Big V YL women - 4300

In starting their own D league the SEABL clubs will save around $5000 on my information.

I really think that if BA let the D league go ahead they will be seriously hurting basketball in Victoria. The YL is a strong and good performer just as are the other Divisions in Big V. Let SEABL be the second tier comp under the NBL and let Big V and the other state based comps drive the development.

[coach_me]

I am puzzled at how SEABL is being classed as the second tier comp from NBL or "D League" (whatever that is). It might be the comp that many NBL / WNBL players like to play in, but surely if it is to be a second tier comp to the NBL / WNBL then it would have a feeder team from all of those clubsplaying at national league level. Of course Perth Lynx could just enter the SEABL women's comp as is, they might win four or five games in that :lol:

I dont understand how people can be worried about the U23 comp until a blue print of what teams are in the roster for 2009 are out ? Or did I miss that ??

[jake11]

[quote="George the Gragon":1uzfbdlp]CVIBL - ah, those were the days!! Great competition with strong country clubs and the smaller city clubs. Eddie Cox, Ken Henry, Scott Roberts, the list goes on.

Big V YL men - $5800
Big V YL women - 4300

In starting their own D league the SEABL clubs will save around $5000 on my information.

I really think that if BA let the D league go ahead they will be seriously hurting basketball in Victoria. The YL is a strong and good performer just as are the other Divisions in Big V. Let SEABL be the second tier comp under the NBL and let Big V and the other state based comps drive the development.[/quote:1uzfbdlp]

How will it be hurting basketball in Victoria????

They will still be playing in Victoria. The remark about CVIBL wasnt meant to be nostalgic its what the Big V will BECOME again. Country teams with the smaller Metro clubs.

Out of Youth League 1 7 teams are SEABL. 5 teams arent. In youth league 2, 2 teams are SEBL, (counting Geelong) and 10 arent. That leaves a 9 team SEABL development comp and a 15 team CVIBL comp (oops Big V).

Nothing says that these two comps cant co-exist.

Im sure after the 2009 season teams like Waverley and Melbourne will also make the jump across. As has been discussed on these board ad nausea Big V championship with the exception of Dandy and Sandy for the most part have been the only decent games. It has only been in recent years the Tigers, Hume have stepped up to the plate but on average the rest of the games with DV, Werribee, Latrobe etc have been 50 point games. The other joke was splitting the referee talent pool in half to accommodate this second rate league and dillute the pool further on the quality games.

It was only a matter of time for teams who crave competition will get fed up with lack of competition and move to where they can find it. And what do you know that has happened and before to long, i give it a season the rest will follow or quite simply the players at those clubs of any substance will move to SEABL clubs for the better competition and every athletes favourate past times...............ROAD TRIPS. Queensland in July or Latrobe Valley/Warrnambool..........Hmmmm tough choice that.

[UserFriendlyRoll]

Having two leagues compete from basically the same player base, namely Victoria, give or take the few outside of Victoria in the SEABL, was always going to end in tears for someone. The cream always ends up at the top and with Sandy and Dandy opting for SEABL in '09, all the cream has just about reached the top. There aren't too many Big V clubs remaining that I would expect could make a successful long term step up to SEABL. I don't think Broady have the monetary support in their area of Melbourne to return and I don't think Waverley could manage it either, being basically the poor brother to the Nunawading Spectres they have always depended greatly on outside players to boost their line up. What other clubs could even contemplate a switch? Latrobe are out, Mildura took a dive to Div 1, Sheparton fell off the perch years ago as did Bulleen. Diamond Valley are perennial workers in CVIBL/BIG V so really, the process is about done. IMO both leagues can still exist but up to a point. Big V can be a Victorian based competition up through the development leagues to the U/23s. Maybe sharing U/23s with SEABL then funneling the best of the players into ONE elite competition, the SEABL. This allows the SEABL's country clubs, Mt Gambier, Albury, Canberra etc to develop their U/23s in the SEABL side and the Victorian clubs, if they choose, to develop through Big V. And one pool of refs working in the old system of the best refs reffing the best games regardless of league has got to be a better system. The refs use these leagues for development too. As they improve they move up, just as players do. We copped some very average refs on some very high standard match ups last season.

[ALLSTAR BABY]

BOYCOTT DANDENONG PRE-SEASON TOURNAMENT. THEY DONT DESERVE TO HAVE IT SO BIG V SHOULD TAKE IT OFF THEM OR GIVE IT TO ANOTHER ASSOCIATION THAT BID FOR IT ORIGINALLY.

[George the Gragon]

It was only a matter of time for teams who crave competition will get fed up with lack of competition and move to where they can find it. And what do you know that has happened and before to long, i give it a season the rest will follow or quite simply the players at those clubs of any substance will move to SEABL clubs for the better competition and every athletes favourate past times...............ROAD TRIPS. Queensland in July or Latrobe Valley/Warrnambool..........Hmmmm tough choice that.[/quote]

Big V Board and Admin, please note the above.

[UserFriendlyRoll]

BOYCOTT DANDENONG PRE-SEASON TOURNAMENT. THEY DONT DESERVE TO HAVE IT SO BIG V SHOULD TAKE IT OFF THEM OR GIVE IT TO ANOTHER ASSOCIATION THAT BID FOR IT ORIGINALLY.
Yeah, give it to a little two-bit club that is struggling to rub two dollar coins together and seats 150 people in their gym. That'll teach 'em !!!!!!!!!! :roll:

[from the cheap seats]

Has the Big V board even met yet ?? Has a phone link up occured ?? Have the clubs been informed at any official level yet?? Does any one know the actual facts?? Has Brad Noonan come out of his bunker yet ?? Has Charles worn out his welcome at BV ?

The answer to these questions is NO NO NO NO and I hope so. I can feel a vote of no confidence coming soon.

[from the cheap seats]

[quote="ALLSTAR BABY":1rsc7aqb]BOYCOTT DANDENONG PRE-SEASON TOURNAMENT. THEY DONT DESERVE TO HAVE IT SO BIG V SHOULD TAKE IT OFF THEM OR GIVE IT TO ANOTHER ASSOCIATION THAT BID FOR IT ORIGINALLY.
Yeah, give it to a little two-bit club that is struggling to rub two dollar coins together and seats 150 people in their gym. That'll teach 'em !!!!!!!!!! :roll:[/quote:1rsc7aqb]

Why not ??? Everyone seems to think its all about bums on seats. Tell me how on earth you can justify allowing a board of self indulgent, selfish F%*()K wits to make money of the back of a league they just shat on.

[justlooking]

I think it is great and with norwood and sturt coming in next year the SEABL looks great!!!

Dandy and Sandy in SEABL - what a comp!!!

[coach_me]

Since when were Norwood and Sturt accepted into the SEABL ?

[jake11]

BOYCOTT DANDENONG PRE-SEASON TOURNAMENT. THEY DONT DESERVE TO HAVE IT SO BIG V SHOULD TAKE IT OFF THEM OR GIVE IT TO ANOTHER ASSOCIATION THAT BID FOR IT ORIGINALLY.

Yeah give it back to Frankston and all is sweet!!!!!!!!!!!!....................Oops hang-on. They hooked out their YL teams for the SEABL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh MY!!!!! Maybe let McKinnon Cougars host!!! Now there is a tournament i would attend!! :roll:

Can anybody play the "Last Post"?

[George the Gragon]

Maybe they could play it at Waverley. The profit could be used to finance their entry into SEABL in 2010.

They could play it at the Veneto Club. The profit might get a Tigers WNBL team up and running.

You could go on and on and abuse everyone in sight but it won't retrieve the situation. The best Victorian teams will finish up in one league eventually and the divisions of Big V left will become the VBL under the administration of BV. Bv will get a spot on the SEABL Board and "cheap seats" will still be very unhappy.

I really like the emotion but in the end you can't fight city hall.

[patm]

The best Victorian teams will finish up in one league eventually ...
But based on that logic, why would Dandenong and others have left the SEABL in the 1st place?
Isn't it more likely we are just seeing another turn of the same wheel.

[from the cheap seats]

Lets not forget about the other divisions in the Big V competition. They provide a great place for a wide variety of players to continue thier careers. Big V will survive so dont let anyone tell you otherwise. Another issue here is what to do about player development and making sure that the smaller clubs can survive. You cannot simply rely on the SEABL clubs to develop juniors, it just will not happen.

On the Official Big V front there will be a board meeting later this week to discuss fixturing and the reshaping of Champ Mne and YL comps. Lets hope they also decide to take the Pre-season comp off Dandenong.

[jake11]

Lets not forget about the other divisions in the Big V competition. They provide a great place for a wide variety of players to continue thier careers. Big V will survive so dont let anyone tell you otherwise. Another issue here is what to do about player development and making sure that the smaller clubs can survive. You cannot simply rely on the SEABL clubs to develop juniors, it just will not happen.

On the Official Big V front there will be a board meeting later this week to discuss fixturing and the reshaping of Champ Mne and YL comps. Lets hope they also decide to take the Pre-season comp off Dandenong.

Nobody has said the Big V wont survive. What will happen is that it will be resigned to being the small comp that it was when it merged/morphed the CVIBL.

The smaller clubs can still develop their junior in there own competition and like has happened for the last 20 years the better kids with the brightest futures will gravitate towards the bigger clubs.

The smaller clubs will always survive but they will play at the Div 1/ Div 2 level.

[Btdg]

Lets not forget about the other divisions in the Big V competition. They provide a great place for a wide variety of players to continue thier careers. Big V will survive so dont let anyone tell you otherwise. Another issue here is what to do about player development and making sure that the smaller clubs can survive. You cannot simply rely on the SEABL clubs to develop juniors, it just will not happen.

On the Official Big V front there will be a board meeting later this week to discuss fixturing and the reshaping of Champ Mne and YL comps. Lets hope they also decide to take the Pre-season comp off Dandenong.

Nobody has said the Big V wont survive. What will happen is that it will be resigned to being the small comp that it was when it merged/morphed the CVIBL.

The smaller clubs can still develop their junior in there own competition and like has happened for the last 20 years the better kids with the brightest futures will gravitate towards the bigger clubs.

The smaller clubs will always survive but they will play at the Div 1/ Div 2 level.

When you say Big V will be a 'small comp', aren't you forgetting that it represents the vast majority of associations within Victoria. Big V is what it is - a good quality, generally well-run amateur competition that allows players to continue at a high level beyond junior competition. And that is exactly what basketball needs - a way of retaining players beyond juniors within the sport, keep them interested rather than just mucking around on a social level. Football does it very well - through the amateurs and various other leagues around victoria. Big V represents the same for basketball.

As for the champ divisions - surely its time to merge Big V and SEABL and forget all this nonsense? You could quite easily split SEABL into a Victorian conference with Nunawading, Kilsyth, Bendigo, Ballarat, Sandringham, Knox, Dandenong, Hume City, Geelong, Frankston, Waverley and the Tigers; and a national conference with Hobart, NW Tassie, Mt Gambier, Southern Districts, AIS, Canberra, Albury, Sturt and Norwood (assuming their entry is correct), and perhaps the best 2-3 additional teams from NSW and Queensland (now that the ABA has gone). Vic teams play their own conference twice and the others once. National conference plays the Vics once, the other teams twice, and makes up the extra games against their rivals (ie Hobart and Tassie play 4 games, AIS, Canberra and Albury play each other 3 times). That would combine the best 19-20 teams in the country into one competition, reduce travel costs, and massively reduce the operating costs of running 2 separate leagues. You could even call the Victorian conference the 'Big V' conference to keep basketball victoria happy.

[jake11]

Thats fantastic but from what i see you just didnt merge Big V and SEABL all you did is bring the bigger Big V clubs under SEABL You just conveniently forgot about Diamond Valley, Eltham, Werribee, Warrnambool, Latrobe and Ringwood. :roll:

Which is the whole point of this thread. I agree there needs to only be one championship league but not all can afford SEABL. What needs to happen is better administration by each club so that they can attract sponsors, advertising etc so that they can raise money to play in the best competition outside of the NBL. What a great opportunity to sell to a prospective major sponsor that your club plays up and down the entire eastern seaboard for 6 months of the year 30 times giving great exposure in local TV, radio and print media!!!!!

Ill say it again, its time for the Big V to realise that it was only ever a rebadging of the CVIBL and that is its place in the Basketball Landscape in Victoria. Yes Dandenong and Hume (Broadmeadows) left SEABL initially due to supposed development reason's and clearly the price. Sandy have now grown into one of the bigger associations and have always had the money to spend on the better players etc. Ill bet the Tigers dont field anywhere near the same side in 2009 as they did in 2008. Big V is perfect for those smaller assocoiations and country associations and i agree it keeps people involved at a higher level that crappy social. But heck, as has been stated to death, some of the Champ games in Big V last season were 60 points +.

[patm]

So if having competitions competing with each other makes no sense.
Who should be resolving this?
Probably those paid to bring stability to the NBL?

[jake11]

I dont see that there is anything to resolve!!

Clubs are allowed to play anywhere they choose. SEABL has been around a lot longer than the Big V or even CVIBL for that matter.

SEABL provides an interstate competition for whomever wishes to be involved and it only seems reasonable that thye would run a league that leads to development in those areas. SEABL have been considering a Development league for at least the last 4 or 5 years so it shouldnt be a shock to many.

Big V provides an excellent league for grass roots association representation. As its previous existance the CVIBL it provided an areana for country associations plus developing associations to play in. Basically all that is happening now is a return back to the status quo!

There is nothing to resolve. With the dispanding of the ABA or the now Australian Club Championchips clubs can play anywhere they so choose. Trying to "MAKE" teams play in one league or another in my eyes would be a form of "restraint of trade"!!

[catcountry]

Mama K - Here is one for you. If I'm not wrong, you are a geelong supporter, associate etc. How does Geelong see this as they have the Supercats that are independantly run in SEABL and also the GABA run Womens Championship and Div 1 men and youth league teams? So now the development stream that the Supercats have been utilisng to gather future talent from will potentially compete in an inferior league. Do Supercats start up their own U/23 team in direct competition to GABA?
The Supercats, up until 2008, used the Geelong BigV YL as their development side with players able to freely rotate between the YL and the SEABL team often playing in both games of the double header fixtures. With the introduction of Big V divy 1 side in 2008, the Big V rules specifically prohibit YL players playing with SEABL if their is a senior men's Big V team in their association. The U23s were forced to make a choice and play SEABL (Dane Bow, Kris Van Parraren) or BigV YL (Chris Brown). At present then, there is no development team feeding the SEABL program from GABA.

[catcountry]

The best Victorian teams will finish up in one league eventually ...
But based on that logic, why would Dandenong and others have left the SEABL in the 1st place?
Isn't it more likely we are just seeing another turn of the same wheel. 'Cause Dandy and Broady moved to YL so they could get a cheaper easier ride to the ABA National Club Championships. As there is no more National Club Championships (either ABA or, as it has been for the last 2 years, BA) there is no need for them to remain in the BigV comp and they now seek the biggest prize now available which is the SEABL championship.
Sandy has been on the verge of moving for a couple of years and, when reviewing the standard of the comp they play in, saw Dandy move and that was probably the tipping point for them to finally go to SEABL as well.

[catcountry]

Also when was the ABA disbanded - didn't they have their nationals finals this year at MSAC??

The ABA was disbanded about 12 months ago. Largely due to central conference not having a level playing field (their salary cap precludes imports) and their unwillingness to participate in the hugely expensive National Club championships at thier own expense (Sturt Men did not come in 2007 as their conference wouldn't cover their costs and left it to the club) with very little hope of being competitive.

The 2007 and 2008 National Club Championships were hosted by BA rather than by the ABA, which is why the final four weekend in MSAC rather than the final 8 as in previous National Club Championships. Note that, at these championship's, BA funded the final 4s costs, whereas in the ABA championships the associations or the clubs had to find the cash. An unsustainable position by BA in the current climate.

[Btdg]

I dont see that there is anything to resolve!!

Clubs are allowed to play anywhere they choose. SEABL has been around a lot longer than the Big V or even CVIBL for that matter.

SEABL provides an interstate competition for whomever wishes to be involved and it only seems reasonable that thye would run a league that leads to development in those areas. SEABL have been considering a Development league for at least the last 4 or 5 years so it shouldnt be a shock to many.

Big V provides an excellent league for grass roots association representation. As its previous existance the CVIBL it provided an areana for country associations plus developing associations to play in. Basically all that is happening now is a return back to the status quo!

There is nothing to resolve. With the dispanding of the ABA or the now Australian Club Championchips clubs can play anywhere they so choose. Trying to "MAKE" teams play in one league or another in my eyes would be a form of "restraint of trade"!!

But how is it the 'status quo'? Sure, for a time SEABL was the premier competition and CVIBL a smaller comp. But Big V developed out of the VCIBL into the larger organisation it is today for 2 reasons that should be fairly obvious to any observers. Firstly, there are a large number of strong small to medium sized basketball associations in Victoria that want to extend their competition beyond juniors. As a result, what was once a country competition is now almost largely metropolitan based. Secondly, Victorian basketball is strong enough to provide for its own elite competition without the added costs of interstate travel. There are currently 12 teams more than capable of providing SEABL quality teams (15 if you count Diamond Valley, Ringwood and Eltham). That is a league in its own right. Until 2008, teams were shifting to Big V out of pure common sense - why would Dandenong pay to travel to Queensland to play, when they can play Waverley just down the road? The added incentive of an easier path to the national championships helped, of course.

2008 was a bad year for Big V - perenial contenders Warrnambool dropped off for a number of reasons and at the same time the top 3 teams got stronger, while the on-going struggles of Werribee and La Trobe City to be competitive are well known. But Dandenong and Sandringham have totally over-reacted in jumping to SEABL, especially considering the lengths the Big V were going to in order to accomdate them and make Big V more competitive in 2009 (and the efforts in promotion etc).

Now we have SEABL functioning as a second-tier national league, at a time when basketball doesn't have the finances or the interest to support one national league. And it still doesn't make any sense for the top Victorian clubs (and you have to include Hume City, Melbourne and Waverley in that right now) to be split between two competitions, with half of them forking out the cash for interstate travel in this climate for basketball.

What is interesting is that you would think that the state of second-tier basketball would be considered a vital part of the BA redevelopment of the NBL currently taking place. Surely the best action for 2009 would have been to continue with the status quo, making the best of a less than ideal situation, and put forward any concerns as part of that review. Instead, Sandringham, Dandenong, the SEABL and the other teams supporting the D-league have undertaken a short-term, self-interested move that puts their own interests ahead of the sport in general. Now what happens if the BA review seeks to dramatically change the structure of the sport (say, moving the second tier to state based leagues, or redesigning the SEABL in some way)? You'd imagine some bridges have been burnt and a fair bit of trust broken over something that may not even last 12 months...

[jake11]

Btgdg

Clearly the teams do have the finances to be involved in the SEABL otherwise they wouldnt be moving leagues!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Clearly there are 14 other teams that can afford it also.

[Btdg]

Btgdg

Clearly the teams do have the finances to be involved in the SEABL otherwise they wouldnt be moving leagues!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Clearly there are 14 other teams that can afford it also.

They do have the money - at the moment. But there is a trade-off between the difference in quality between SEABL and Big V, and the cost savings. When Big V was stronger a couple of years ago, Dandenong and Sandringham were happy to play there. After the decrease in standard last year, and subsequent 50+ point thrashings, they want to move. But if Big V provided close to equal standard to SEABL, they would have been happy to stay (they don't want to pay the extra money - they accept it as a necessary condition of getting better competition, which is a different thing altogether).

My point is moving across is a self-interested, short-term act, considering the problems facing the national league. Why essentially gut the top division of Big V (arguably one of the strongest growth areas of basketball in Australia over the past 5 years) during a time of instability for basketball across the country? Why not wait and see if the changes demanded by those two clubs, and agreed to only a few weeks ago, make a difference? Why not at least wait on the BA review of the NBL to try and propose a structure that best supports the NBL as a second-tier league, as opposed to forcing their hand (by strengthening SEABL to the point that any alternative is almost inconceivable in the near future)?

[Hoopdog]

WOW!! Some shall i say "interesting" views here... clearly some of the smaller less competitive Big V clubs are concerned, maybe they should look at what's wrong in their own backyards first, had they been more competitive in champ men it might have survived.
I think Big V have created this problem by trying to compete with SEABL in the first place, SEABL existed long before big v champ men.
Big V should have kept out of the ABA and provided a mid week level 1 league that wasn't seen as competition to the ABA/SEABL, like the old First Div on wed night..
I bet many SEABL clubs would have fielded teams in that league had in not conflicted with their ABA aspirations.
Big V Champ Men has never been a totally competitive league like SEABL, its always been dominated by 2 or 3 teams, 60 point drubbing have been all too common from day 1.
To be honest bar 4 or 5 teams in Champ men the rest aren't up to it and can't field an "ABA" standard team full stop, div 1 is where these teams should be.
The top teams only stayed/went to Big V for 2 reasons... costs, and the potential of an easier ride to the ABA nationals..
You cant compare the problems that the NBL faces with that of Club Basketball.. SEABL is a far more viable and sustainable model than the NBL currently is, and for totally different reasons.
Elite Club Basketball is alive and well, despite the negativity surrounding the NBL and the expansion of SEABL proves it. I think you'll find the NBL can learn more from this than the other way...
Oh and another thing, to drag the officials into this debate is pure stupidity, and to suggest banning them from officiating SEABL is both ludicrous and i bet totally against the wishes of every top official/club and BA.

[Heavy Drama]

As someone who once played in the Big V, I do have a soft spot for the league. But you can't fault the reason(S) why Sandy and Dandy opting to move across to SEABL. I always wanted to play in the SEABL but was neverr lucky enough to. Whether it was for personal gain or self interests, Teams have the right to play where they want to just like individual players. There were some valid point made throughout this thread and I enjoyed reading all of them.

I know teams didn't want to make the trip down here to warrnambool know the game was over before it started but couldn't those teams just use the trip as a "bonding" trip? Chance to play players 9 and 10 a little more than their regular 6-10 minutes?

anyway best of luck to everyone involved and "F.T.C.S." I do agree that our league has gone down since the departure of Matt Cowling. Maybe it's his fault! :wink: :lol:

[from the cheap seats]

Big V board met last night and I can say for a FACT that the withdrawl of the Pre-season tournament was on the agenda. Lets hope that they do get toug and show some backbone and support the club which support them. A before some narrow minded fool like UER FREINDLY ROLL steps up and makes a dumb comment, its not ALL about bums on seats or holding it in a huge multi court venue. Its about a board proving it has control and has the balls to stand up for itself and its members. Sure a host would like to make some money out of it but I think the remaining clubs would much prefer to see Noonan and Co get tough instead of watching thier supporters money go straight int a SEABL club which just screwed them over.
If people would start looking at the bigger picture and not focus just thier own narrow minded, club based opinions maybe the League would be in better shape. The clubs have been screaming out for better leadership, marketing and support from the league for years and no one has delivered. Cowling was moving in the right direction but then he was gone. The Board now has a few solid members in Ray Borner, Laurie Joyce and Larry Sengstock but I think the chairman and the CEO need to look at thier futures and move on. Daryl Neal deserves a huge pat on the back for the effort he has put in over that past 19 years but new blood with modern ideas is needed. I have said enough about the CEO.
BTW do you know how to find the current board members on the web site ?? Dont look at the Board Members link because that gives you the previous board. The league media manager (paid postion) has had nearly a full month to update this but alas no. An example of what goes on. Might be small I know but if they cant keep thier own details up to date what else do they fail to do ??
And while we are on boards, have a good look at the BV one. Dominated by SEABL clubs. You can bet any decision made by BV will only be to the benifit of the power clubs with Dandenong holding the power. Dont let so called equal voting rights fool you. The rich just get richer.

[George the Gragon]

Rangers holding the power at BV - How? SEABL Clubs - yes.

Didn't Frankston start and run the Pre Season tournament for years? They are a SEABL club.

If it makes you happy take the Pre Season tournament off Dandenong. It won't change anything. Where do Sandringham sit in all this? Are they getting off scott free while the Rangers cop "cheapie's" barbs???

Obviosly the Big V Boasrd leaks like a sieve if you know what was on the Agenda. Will Big V breach the contract they have with Dandenong?

[Factor]

FFS, SEABL is just a league :roll: , All VICTORIAN clubs are part of BV, weather they have teams participating in Big V leagues or SEABL is irrelevant. It doesn't mean jack where board members clubs' play.
I'm sick of reading all this "us and "them" conspiracy rubbish, if you want to play SEABL play it, if not play Big V, SEABL have their act together, you can't blame teams for playing in it.

[from the cheap seats]

Rangers holding the power at BV - How? SEABL Clubs - yes.

Didn't Frankston start and run the Pre Season tournament for years? They are a SEABL club.

If it makes you happy take the Pre Season tournament off Dandenong. It won't change anything. Where do Sandringham sit in all this? Are they getting off scott free while the Rangers cop "cheapie's" barbs???

Obviosly the Big V Boasrd leaks like a sieve if you know what was on the Agenda. Will Big V breach the contract they have with Dandenong?

Gearge, Frankston had Big V teams. Now they dont. Sandringham are just as guilty as Dandenong but they didnt win the Tournament bid. Now before you get upety on that issue lets look at the business side of things. I doubt they can have it taken away but at the very least I would expect it to be explored which is just what the board is doing. Only a fool would NOT do his. Now if I was Dandenong I would have negotiated a water tight contract, but if I as Big V I would have sought assurances that Dandenong have teams playing in Big V for the life of the contract. The rumours of them leaving were about when the tender was let so Big V HAD warning signs. Goes to the strong managment issues.

As for the board leaking I can say I have no personal contact there but over the past week dozens of phone calls have gone on between board members, presidents, delegates coaches and just people in the know. At least a dozen people knew that the contract would be discussed last night
Plus this is not the only place open discussions as being had.

[from the cheap seats]

FFS, SEABL is just a league :roll: , All VICTORIAN clubs are part of BV, weather they have teams participating in Big V leagues or SEABL is irrelevant. It doesn't mean jack where board members clubs' play.
I'm sick of reading all this "us and "them" conspiracy rubbish, if you want to play SEABL play it, if not play Big V, SEABL have their act together, you can't blame teams for playing in it.


Factor. Shouldnt you be at Schoolies onthe Gold Coast ?? :? :? :lol:

[from the cheap seats]

George, Sorry about the spelling mistake..... :oops:

[UserFriendlyRoll]

And before some narrow minded fool like UER FREINDLY ROLL steps up and makes a dumb comment, its not ALL about bums on seats or holding it in a huge multi court venue.Damn some of you guys get defensive when your league sucks. Not my fault or anyone elses fault on here that has pointed that out. As has been stated, Frankston (SEABL) ran the tournament for years. Like the leagues, clubs can choose to play in whatever tournament they wish. It just so happens that the Big v teams chose to use Frankston as their preparation. Financially and one would hope, logistically, Dandenong would do a good job of running it. They can play all games in one venue, unlike some little piddly Big V club that plays out of a tin shed somewhere and as Dandenong have had previous experience running big events there should be no hassles organizationally. Personally I don't give a s**t either way as I have never actually attended the tournament but the "small man syndrome" Big V clubs have got to face facts. Unless they want to provide a Champ competition that can put a competitive product on the floor week in- week out, there aint enough room in this town for both of 'em. The CVIBL was never at the same level as SEABL so a name change to Big V was never going to solve anything there. And as for Diamond Valley and Eltham being competitive in SEABL, pft ! They are only mid runners in Big V.

[George the Gragon]

The two other clubs who could be competitive in SEABL from Big V would be Melbourne and Waverley. The other club who should be would be Hume City. They have a great women's team but them men's team is rebuilding.

It would be possible that these three clubs could enter SEABL in 2010 topping up the large Victorian prrsence.

[grass_rooted]

Rangers holding the power at BV - How? SEABL Clubs - yes.

Didn't Frankston start and run the Pre Season tournament for years? They are a SEABL club.

Actually Frankston at the time were also a Big V club. By pulling all four teams from the Big V Dandenong can no longer claim that.

If it makes you happy take the Pre Season tournament off Dandenong. It won't change anything...

Obviosly the Big V Boasrd leaks like a sieve if you know what was on the Agenda. Will Big V breach the contract they have with Dandenong?

The contract argument is an interesting one. Arguably by pulling youth league teams after they agreed to the structure for 2009 at this years AGM those same clubs can be said to have breached their contract with Big V.

[Hoopdog]

From www.seabl.com.au (http://www.seabl.com.au)

"Just as basketball in Australia appeared to have been caught in a perfect storm of problems, SEABL has continued to establish itself as a community based, family oriented national basketball league. The addition of two new teams to SEABL for the 2009 season highlights the growing strength of SEABL. The success of the community based SEABL is in marked contrast to the on-going struggles of the privately owned teams in the NBL.




SEABL General Manager Mark Chivers has announced the Dandenong Basketball Association and the Southern Basketball Associations (Sandringham) have applied to join SEABL in 2009. The applications are subject to ratification by Basketball Australia and, providing there are no problems, the teams will participate in the 2009 competition.




Together the teams make SEABL stronger than ever before. Dandenong, SEABL champions in 1986, 1997, and 2004, returns to SEABL after participating in the Big V competition from 2005 through 2008. Sandringham, a perennial finalist in the Big V and regular participant in the annual ABA national finals, joins SEABL for the first time; but in national ABA competition Sandringham has amply demonstrated that it’s more than prepared to step up to SEABL. Dandenong and Sandringham join a national league with clubs in Victoria, New South Wales, ACT, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania.




According to Simon Brookhouse, SEABL Chairman, the addition of these two associations to SEABL means 8 of the strongest basketball associations in Australia are now participating in the league. Both Sandringham and Dandenong bring women’s teams to SEABL as well as their men’s teams. In addition, each association is noted for its strong junior program with its junior teams regularly vying for honours in the Victorian junior championships. With strong junior programs Sandringham and Dandenong epitomise SEABL’s policy of providing clearly defined pathways for basketball juniors to move from elite junior basketball to elite senior competition.




In the past decade SEABL has delivered not only top flight competition and entertainment to its audiences, but it has also developed a top flight administration to keep the competition moving smoothly.




The administration oversees one of Australia’s largest sporting competitions with more than 220,000 supporters passing through league venues each week. Advertisers have come to recognise how grass roots basketball delivers a key demographic of young families. As advertisers become increasingly aware of the link between young families and basketball, SEABL can look to develop new sponsorship arrangements with advertisers keen to reach this demographic.




The continued growth of SEABL shows reports of basketball’s demise have been exaggerated. With strong administration and a sound business model, basketball can succeed in Australia. "

[the_vandal]

Slight update for everyone re the Sandringham/Dandenong situation. Apparently the BigV has called a "crisis" meeting with the two clubs which will be held on Monday. I'm sure we'll all hear more very very soon but my assumption would be that there could be issues with BA granting the clubs the ok to switch comps after already confirming their participation in BigV Champ this season.

[George the Gragon]

Not happening

[the_vandal]

So the meeting has been called off?

[from the cheap seats]

Big V had a board meeting last week and decided to fight the proposed U23 SEABL comp and rightly so. All the clubs involved in the comp had agreed many weeks earlier to the Big V structure and proposed leage make-up. For them to suddenly pull out all thier YL teams is nothing short of discgracefull. Basketball Australia is very unimpressed with the way SEABL has gone about this so expect the proposed SEABL U23 comp to not be approved by BA. The will not grant the licence.
Big V board has written to all particpating clubs about thier plans so this should not be a suprise to most.
Dandenong and Sandringham can go play SEABL and when the money runs out, like it has in the past, I hope Big V tells em to F(*&^K OFF when they come crawling back. Maybe a bond for these selfish pricks will be in order. Join the comp, pay your $10,000 bond and if you leave the comp without 1 season notice you loose you money. They all say its not about the money so it should not be a problem for them should it ???
As for the SEABL dominated Basketball Victoria Board you can expect some heavy politicing to start with a view to balancing up the power.
Lastly, I dont think there will be a tournament held at Dandenong or Frankston in Feb 2009. Mr Ryan and Co you have screwed to many people over this and your time is coming...............

[George the Gragon]

Once again attacking Dandenong!!

Under 23 comp will be interesting. As I understand it SEABL clubs made some demands and Big V could not or would not meet them. Hence they withdrew their teams. In fact some non SEABL teams have asked to join the competition.

[grass_rooted]

Once again attacking Dandenong!!

Under 23 comp will be interesting. As I understand it SEABL clubs made some demands and Big V could not or would not meet them. Hence they withdrew their teams. In fact some non SEABL teams have asked to join the competition.

George, you obviously have some inside mail. Go to your source and ask these questions -
What were the demands?
How many were made?
Were they reasonable demands or not?
Is the list of demands an excuse to move?
And if it's true they weren't met, why weren't they?
I find the word "demand" interesting as well. Is it true that none of these demands were made prior to the Big V AGM or at the Big V AGM?
Under what charter does SEABL have the right to run an under 23 competition within this or any other state?
Which non-SEABL teams have asked to join the competition?
Is SEABL actively poaching?

[George the Gragon]

Will SEABL be able to set up this competition. I don't know but I do know that they have some clout because of numbers. The "demands" were not unreasonable in most cases but in reducing the costs of playing. Less games for an increase in costs didn't make too much sense. At least one of the demands was brought up at the AGM and had been discussed with the gm before the meeting.

[grass_rooted]

...clout because of numbers.

Well that will be an interesting argument, a minority of Victorian Associations [even if they are the biggest] trying to dictate to a majority. What dodgy numbers are these? Are you saying that their "numbers" give them more rights than anyone else? Or maybe you're referring to numbers on the BV Board?

Here's a thought why not let SEABL set up Divisions in every state and run them in opposition to the State based leagues. That'll be good for the game. :shock:

...The "demands" were not unreasonable in most cases but in reducing the costs of playing. Less games for an increase in costs didn't make too much sense. At least one of the demands was brought up at the AGM and had been discussed with the gm before the meeting.

Again "show me the money." Don't just come on here and expect people to take your word that the demands were reasonable. Tell us what they were and let everyone make a judgement call on whether they were or not. Which one was brought up at the AGM and how do you know it was raised? Were you there?

[Factor]

Some of you need to READ the media statement from SEABL.

From what i can see they're not trying to "compete" with any state based league at all.
All they're trying to do is provide clubs the opportunity to compete in a club based "Semi" National type league at the highest level possible outside the NBL..... Kind of like what the NBL was in the beginning.
By expanding the size and breadth of the league it will make it more attractive to gain bigger sponsors and also create a higher profile for their junior programs in their community.

Talk about tall poppy syndrome...

[from the cheap seats]

You know what George, I will attack Dandenong as much as I like especially when they deserve it. My only fault here is that I am nt dumping on Sandringham as much but they are in this together and conspired to do what they did from the very begining.

You really need to put the facts up and not just what suits your Dandenong defence. The fact is when the YL schedule was announce most of the competing club requested MORE games. The fact is they got more and the schedule was still being organised with a 18 game season when Geelong pulled out. Back to the drawing board. No matter how many lame excuses you put forward the fact remains Dandenong simply needed time to get thier finances organised and to make sure Sandringham didnt pull out of thier pact. You also lost your GM so that put a spanner in the works but obviously CR is in control because it did very little except delay things a week or two. Pity his daughter cant foul shoot as well as he can bullshit everyone.
As for Dandenong "making demands" I would say more like bullying the other clubs and the Big V management. They wanted thier cake and a bit from everyone else. You also say that the SEABL clubs made demands on Big V. Smells like a pact here as well. Make demands knowing they will not be met and then use that excuse to justify your actions. Sounds like a dictatorship doesnt it.

Now for another of your misdirections. Which VICTORIAN BIG V teams not currently in SEABL have asked to join the U23 comp ???? If you cant name them dont hide behind them. I will happily say sorry if you can prove this but I bet your quoting NON VICTORIAN clubs here. Hardly helps the argument does it ???

[grass_rooted]

Factor - Of course SEABL will say they're doing it for all the right reasons. Doesn't mean that what they say is true.

Setting up a state based youth league in a state where one already exists is "competing" particularly if other non-SEABL clubs are being approached. But let's accept your argument and ask the question about what's to stop them setting up Under 20's, Under 18's, Under 16's etc. in the future because their clubs have the "numbers" to do that as well. That would do to the VJBL exactly what this is doing to Big V - decimate it. So the question is who runs the sport? Seems to me some people think it is run by the big Associations.

Will the governing bodies allow someone else to come in and run Leagues in direct compeitition with ones that they own?

There doesn't seem to be anything "National" about their youth league, if it included all of the SEABL clubs then perhaps there wouldn't be an argument. But let's remember George said cost was an issue, so if that's the case would the SEABL clubs wear the cost of sending seconds teams around the country to play? I think not.

[patm]

... So the question is who runs the sport? ...
That says it all for me.
You've got individuals and groups pushing their own agendas.
Others getting very upset.
A few shit stirrers having a wonderful time with it.
And some who say there is nothing wrong with the situation :roll: .
It's no wonder the sport can't generate much interest to a wider audience beyond players playing it.

[from the cheap seats]

Some of you need to READ the media statement from SEABL.

From what i can see they're not trying to "compete" with any state based league at all.
All they're trying to do is provide clubs the opportunity to compete in a club based "Semi" National type league at the highest level possible outside the NBL..... Kind of like what the NBL was in the beginning.
By expanding the size and breadth of the league it will make it more attractive to gain bigger sponsors and also create a higher profile for their junior programs in their community.

Talk about tall poppy syndrome...

Yeah right. Are you that blind ?? I think Hitler said much the same thing after invading Poland, "who me, nah, I dont want rule the world. I just need a bigger back yard !"

[from the cheap seats]

... So the question is who runs the sport? ...
That says it all for me.
You've got individuals and groups pushing their own agendas.
Others getting very upset.
A few shit stirrers having a wonderful time with it.
And some who say there is nothing wrong with situation :roll: .
It's no wonder the sport can't generate much interest beyond players playing.

In Victoria it seems to be run by the big 4 all of whom hold BV board seats and all of them are SEABL clubs. The rich get richer and the poor.......well who gives a stuff.
Everyone needs to stop and have a close look into the crystal ball. The big 4 or 5 get so big that guess what, the smaller clubs are no longer competative and simply just dissappear. SO Dandenong, Knox, Kilsyth, Nunawading Sandringham and Frankston (maybe a couple of others) all play off amongst themselves at all levels. Its a very narrow minded person who cannot see that this is not healthy. Its the control freaks who think it is.

[George the Gragon]

Your personal attacks demean this discussion. Are you claiming somehow that SEABL clubs should be restricted when it comes to positions on the BV Board? Seen as you know so much about BIg V you should be able to work out who thinks they might be left out of this new proposed Under 23 comp.

[grass_rooted]

Your personal attacks demean this discussion. Are you claiming somehow that SEABL clubs should be restricted when it comes to positions on the BV Board? Seen as you know so much about BIg V you should be able to work out who thinks they might be left out of this new proposed Under 23 comp.

Don't think anyone has said that George. Obviously it would be preferable to have a totally independent board but there are probably reasons why that is a difficult prospect.

The issue is about leadership. Can those Board members who pulled their youth league teams from the Big V make a decision that is in the interests of all Associations and not just their own?

The BV Board needs to show the leadership required for the benefit of the sport and they need to be totally transparent about who they support, Big V or SEABL, and let everyone know the basis for their decision. Don't forget Big V is a BV delegated body. It's hard for me to see why any BV Board member would not support their own competitions. I would have thought their duty as Board members demands that.

And nice deflection by the way. You still haven't answered the questions I asked earlier.

[from the cheap seats]

Your personal attacks demean this discussion. Are you claiming somehow that SEABL clubs should be restricted when it comes to positions on the BV Board? Seen as you know so much about BIg V you should be able to work out who thinks they might be left out of this new proposed Under 23 comp.

Sorry George, some people just have a bigger target on thier backs than others..........

Now I dont get the last bit. I know exactly who was listd as playing Big V YL. Its on the web sit for goodness sake. I also know who has told the league they are pulling out. Its not about who will miss out more so about your claim that non SEABL clubs want to play in the U23 comp.
SO your last comment misses my origonal question to you.

What Big V clubs who dont have SEABL teams have lodged a bid to play in the new SEABL U23 comp ????? You made the claim now back it up.

[George the Gragon]

Who else in Big V would see themselves in the elite level of Victorian Clubs? You work it out and you'll have your answer as to who else would be interested in joining the D league? Don't think it will happen though.

[from the cheap seats]

Who else in Big V would see themselves in the elite level of Victorian Clubs? You work it out and you'll have your answer as to who else would be interested in joining the D league? Don't think it will happen though.

Fact is NO OTHER clubs except those playing in the SEABL comp have pulled thier YL teams. Nice attempt at a smoke screen though. When you look like loosing use mis-direction a your only defence. Are you going to answer grass_rooted or dodge that one also... :) :lol:

Another fact is that NO interstate SEABL teams are looking to join the U23 comp so its just an attempt by the SEABL board to destabalise the Big V competition. Thats why BA should not and will not grant them a licence to creat a competition which is currently being well catered for by Big V.
The Big V YL competitin is growing and will get stronger as time goes on. Big V does need to esure that it does simpy because the U20 VJBL comp is dying off. One thing the board could do and do soon is remove some of the restrictions for clubs wanting to play in YL. I see absolutely no logical reason why a small club with a solid group of U23's cant enter simply because they dont have or cant field a Division team. Its called creating a pathway.

[George the Gragon]

Fact is right. I don't believe I ever said that any other clubs pulled their YL teams. All I know is that two other clubs made enquiries.

I know you are always right - that's why you've spent time berating anyone else with a different opinion. I don't really care that much about the argument just trying to provide some information. All this may not have happened if Big V had been supportive of the new concept that was supposedly developed at these meetings of Big V, BV and SEABL. If you want to berate anyone then look to the Chairman and Board of Big V.

As for an "grassies"independent board comment no board electyed from its member clubs is ever independent. Once BA blocks the D league with the support of BV then the working party of Big V, BV and SEABL will fall apart and everyone will have to continue with the present structure. Or will they???

BA must come in and sort out a way forward.

[from the cheap seats]

Fact is right. I don't believe I ever said that any other clubs pulled their YL teams. All I know is that two other clubs made enquiries.

I know you are always right - that's why you've spent time berating anyone else with a different opinion. I don't really care that much about the argument just trying to provide some information. All this may not have happened if Big V had been supportive of the new concept that was supposedly developed at these meetings of Big V, BV and SEABL. If you want to berate anyone then look to the Chairman and Board of Big V.

As for an "grassies"independent board comment no board electyed from its member clubs is ever independent. Once BA blocks the D league with the support of BV then the working party of Big V, BV and SEABL will fall apart and everyone will have to continue with the present structure. Or will they???

BA must come in and sort out a way forward.

How can you say tha Big V was not supportive of the new league concept when they agreed at a meeting with SEABL to establish a working group to review it during 2009 ???
You really need to stick to the facts and not simply justisfy what the two rengade clubs did, BROKE THE AGREEMENT !! That started the whole thing off with the YL teams. All the clubs agreed to the Big V league changes and structure a the Big V AGM. Teams committed to playing Big V and a working party was formed to look at a new proposed league in 2010 based on the Dandenong/Sandringham proposal.
THEN........

D & S pulled thier teams and a day later the other SEABL clubs pulled thier YL teams. This is not about playing SEABL or which is the better league or how strong various boards are. Its simply case of two clubs breaking thier word and the agreement which was put in place at the Big V delegate meeting. Then its a case of the res ofthe SEABL clubs also leaving a league (YL) after they all agreed to play it.
I cant make it any clearer that that so if you se it any other way then I feel sorry for you as you obviously have ONE EYE.


I 100% agree with you on the BA side of things but they have lots on thier plate which might be one reason D & S did what they did now.

I dont berate anyone elses opinion unless they are fools and I have got stuck into Noonan many times in this thread. Had he done something about the state of the Championship Mens comp when he was asked to alot of pain could have been avoided.

George the Gragon wrote:
Once again attacking Dandenong!!

Under 23 comp will be interesting. As I understand it SEABL clubs made some demands and Big V could not or would not meet them. Hence they withdrew their teams. In fact some non SEABL teams have asked to join the competition.

SO now your saying two teams "made enquires". Perhaps that would have been the best way to put it in the first place. Making enquires is very different to "asking to join" but then its sounds better to help defend Dandenong.

[Hoopdog]

Cheap seats, be honest, this really has nothing to do with what's right or wrong with what's going on, in fact only a small minded moron could see a negative with it. Everyone ive spoken to thinks its a great thing for basketball.
This is purely a personal gripe you have with Dande and sandi...

[from the cheap seats]

Cheap seats, be honest, this really has nothing to do with what's right or wrong with what's going on, in fact only a small minded moron could see a negative with it. Everyone ive spoken to thinks its a great thing for basketball.
This is purely a personal gripe you have with Dande and sandi...

Another "this is good" comment. WHY is it good. Put forward your argument for your comment. I bet your club doesnt have a team in either comp which is effected, but I would say that if Dandenong had screwed over div 2 or 3 then you would have something to say about it.

[from the cheap seats]

Here is the challenge....
Somebody come on here and make a positive unbiased argument why its good for Victorian Basketball to have a few powerull clubs dictate terms to Big V? Why is it good for a few powerfull clubs to break agreements resulting in minor chaos? Why is it good for one league to attempt to start up a competing competition just for there own gratification?
I am all for SEABL taking over as the 2nd tier league to the NBL if thats what they want but Big V is state based and caters to a bigger section of the players than SEABL ever will. Any action or attemped action to detact from this cannot be good forBasketball at large.

[Hoopdog]

What's the point? you've made your mind up and have your agenda.. plenty of people have explained why its good, you just won't listen or see reason.

[jake11]

Just on a side note, Big V is its own worst enemy. It has grown to big to fast at the lower levels and quality has been the loser. Clubs being let into the leagues not having their own courts and in some case 3 clubs sharing the same venue. In some of the lower grades the facilities are poor at best.

1100 games a season that have to all have venues, game night staff is way to many and the quality of basketball, game night presentation etc at the lower levels is again poor at best. This all started at the end of MC's era and continued when the leprachaun took over. Big V would have been better to consolidate what it HAD rather than push on at all cost with expansion for expansions sake.

If they had of put the same energy into keeping their Championship competitions more competative my guess is this thread would never have been started. The women's comp has been a basket case for years with only 2 or 3 teams even in the hunt and the men's woes have been well documented here.

[from the cheap seats]

Just on a side note, Big V is its own worst enemy. It has grown to big to fast at the lower levels and quality has been the loser. Clubs being let into the leagues not having their own courts and in some case 3 clubs sharing the same venue. In some of the lower grades the facilities are poor at best.

1100 games a season that have to all have venues, game night staff is way to many and the quality of basketball, game night presentation etc at the lower levels is again poor at best. This all started at the end of MC's era and continued when the leprachaun took over. Big V would have been better to consolidate what it HAD rather than push on at all cost with expansion for expansions sake.

If they had of put the same energy into keeping their Championship competitions more competative my guess is this thread would never have been started. The women's comp has been a basket case for years with only 2 or 3 teams even in the hunt and the men's woes have been well documented here.

Agree 100%. Blackburn for one has no Big V standard courts but they still manage to put two teams on the floor. Should they be killed off?? Some clubs compete well but because they dont own thier stadium or have huge domestic competitions to suck cash from should they be excuded form playing in state level comp?? Look at the WNBL. Bulleen has a crappy home court but they compete in a National competition.

HOOPDOG. Quote these good arguments please because I dont read them.

[Factor]

Jake, i think you're right, there's too much "non elite" basketball being played at both a Jnr and Snr level under the "elite" guise of BV/BigV.
The product has been watered down too far, too many teams/clubs just making up numbers, most of those lower divisions are nothing more than just an extra domestic level game....

[jake11]

There is nothing wrong with Bulleen's home court in the WNBL other than the ref's rooms arent up to scratch but hey no one worries about them until its time to bag them. At least Blackburn have their own court!!! Not like others.

BIGGER isnt always better. I used to love the quote, "Biggest basketball competition in the southern hemisphere"!!! Says nothing about its standard though.

[paxson]

grass_rooted do you think it would be inappropriate for a Big V board member to make public comment on this?

[from the cheap seats]

Jake, i think you're right, there's too much "non elite" basketball being played at both a Jnr and Snr level under the "elite" guise of BV/BigV.
The product has been watered down too far, too many teams/clubs just making up numbers, most of those lower divisions are nothing more than just an extra domestic level game....

I agree with this in theory but how do you take away whats already there? Div 3 is not much better that some mid week open age comps and I for one see very little value in it. The YL concept needs top be worked up much more. I think all clubs should meet a minimum standard as far as courts and facilities are concerned. I think you should also be able to prove that you have a good junior program to support the future Big V teams. Look at the Sherbrook womens team a season or two ago. Winners one season and gone the next. Questions are being asked about Warrandyte women as well. Thier junior program is not going all that well and the only thing keeping them in the game is money to buy players. Fortunately they will not disappear they will simply go down to Div 2 when the cash runs out.
Big V need to concentrate on Champ men and women, Div 1 and YL in that order. Div 2 and 3 are just fillers and need no real support. You coud live without Div 3 for sure.

[The Source]

The Big V allows clubs and associations the opportunity to compete against similar level teams in a state competition. Obviously different associations are at different levels and have different capabilities. It is still the best team that that particular association can put together and is therefore elite. If we were to limit senior basketball to the elite in the strictest definition, then we might as well have the NBL and just domestic comps.

Compare that to other sports such as cricket, soccer, aussie rules etc. They all have different levels of the code that cater to the ability of a club to develop talent, recruit talent and be competitive at a senior level. The same thing should be and is available to basketball associations. It is ridiculously arrogant for those at the top end of the tree to look down upon the rest below them and tell them that they have no place.

I think we should be proud to be involved in a sport whether it be in the Big V or SEABL that markets its product so well amongst its members. I think as a sport, we do it better than any other.

[The_Janitor]

Why should clubs (Dandy & Sandy) that strive for decent competition have anything held against for actually going looking for it.
I can speak for myself and the group of friends that i attend games with got fed up with seeing Dandy smacking teams last season and the season before... How does it help the BigV to have farcical games going on where they're beating oppositions by 50+ points. If the BigV can't provide them with competition and the SEABL can then i'm all for going to see competitive games

[from the cheap seats]

The Big V allows clubs and associations the opportunity to compete against similar level teams in a state competition. Obviously different associations are at different levels and have different capabilities. It is still the best team that that particular association can put together and is therefore elite. If we were to limit senior basketball to the elite in the strictest definition, then we might as well have the NBL and just domestic comps.

Compare that to other sports such as cricket, soccer, aussie rules etc. They all have different levels of the code that cater to the ability of a club to develop talent, recruit talent and be competitive at a senior level. The same thing should be and is available to basketball associations. It is ridiculously arrogant for those at the top end of the tree to look down upon the rest below them and tell them that they have no place.

I think we should be proud to be involved in a sport whether it be in the Big V or SEABL that markets its product so well amongst its members. I think as a sport, we do it better than any other.

Part of the issue here is that by having TOO MUCH Big V it is sucking resources out of an already under resourced game. Minimum standards should apply at Big V level. A proper pathway is needed for players to get though the system. Clearly defined National and State based competitions are needed to provide just that.
I still say that SEABL should not be allowed to have a STATE based, Victoria only U23 comp. Big V already does even if some SEABL clubs dont like it. Any SEABL competition MUST be constructed from ALL clubs, not just Vic ones.

[coach_me]

I still say that SEABL should not be allowed to have a STATE based, Victoria only U23 comp. Big V already does even if some SEABL clubs dont like it. Any SEABL competition MUST be constructed from ALL clubs, not just Vic ones.

Well now you've put it that way, I am sure the SEABL will change their minds. Serious how did the AFL ever go forward when so many people in this state have their head placed firmly up their butts. "Obviously we dont need AFL we have VFL and we are the best" blah blah blah. After reading some of the crap on here, some people arent about the game developing, just their own little corner of the world. Are you also against your club bring out American Imports or players from other states as they are not Victorian ? Where do you draw the line ?? It is the Victoria only mentality that is truly disappointing to a lover of the game. Yes Victorian basketball is very strong, the home of the game in Australia, but you cant deny other teams wanting to play in a roster if those running the roster are open minded enough to expand beyond the Victoiran borders. I am just glad that they give this opportunity to both male and female players, coaches and officals.

Players, coaches and officals will be involved at what ever level they choose or have the ability to be involved at. Be that SEABL, Big V or what ever. I would find it good to watch say Bendigo and Ballarat play with YL men and SEABL men on the same night. Also means coaching staff of SEABL can maybe keep a closer eye on the up and coming talent which they might not be able to do currently as they might get the chance to see their youth league team maybe once or twice a year. Remember that not everyone might want to travel so players will go to neighbouring clubs to get a game. So Nunawadings gun this season might be playing for Hume next season for example. Just look at Chris Cameron and Kathleen McLeod for examples, SEABL one season, Big V the next.

What ever happens at the end of it all, I hope that basketball is the winner, giving more media and opportunity for people to showcase their abilities at the highest level they can. The game does evolve, whilst not all change is progression, you wont get progression without some change.

that what this old coach thinks anyway :roll:

[George the Gragon]

Is SEABL working on similar model to AFL. National senior competition underpinned by state based TAC under 18 Victorian competition??

How do you stop this?

Make them play in a more expensive state based competition? i.e. Big V YL.

BV meeting tomorrow night will be most interesting.

[the_hard_truth]

All very interesting reading...

If Dandy came back from SEABL to help develop their juniors and play their home grown talent, why were their 3 best players last season, Cannon, Hobba and Inglima, all non-Dandenong players? And also if they came back from SEABL to save cash in order to develop their juniors, why did they pay these players so much?

I dont think we all should be getting angry at Dandenong, rather pity them for not being disciplined and smart enough to stick to their original plans when they arrived in the Big V. They obviously couldn't put their egos aside and try and win withhout spending the cash and relying on their own players, which they should have an abundunce of considering their junior program success.

Anyway, good luck to them in SEABL, it's where they belong, and to Sandringham who have built their program over the years to be extremely successful and deserve the right to compete against the best Club teams in the nation.

I agree that the Big V did not keep the Mens Championship division in good enough order. This should be the showpiece of the league, and be treated as such. Plus I agree there has been a flooding of teams and a dispearsion of talent with all the divisions in Big V. Instead of having 2 Divisions, there is now 4 with many players capable of competing in Championship and Division 1 playing with in Division 2 and 3. If there was no option to play in the lower leagues, the top players they would play in the higher leagues thus increasing the all-round standard

Also in regard to the press release put forward by the SEABL, I don't think it's a good idea to have a go at the NBL, especially in the current situation they're in. You're league may have been around for a while and have many traditions, but the NBL has been around for longer has more traditions.

This has been the HARD truth...

[coach_me]

Also in regard to the press release put forward by the SEABL, I don't think it's a good idea to have a go at the NBL, especially in the current situation they're in. You're league may have been around for a while and have many traditions, but the NBL has been around for longer has more traditions.

This is correct the NBL started in 1978 and the (ABA) SEABL 1981 according to the records.

[devils]

Although I see the merits in a SEABL under 23 competition, I am not sure if there will be any clubs interested outside Victoria.

Canberra Gunners already have a development team, the Canberra Nationals, who play in the Waratah ABA league, and mostly consist of younger players.

Both Tassie teams I doubt would put teams in either. NW Tasmania already has the NWBU competition that they draw younger players from (from memory NWBU also runs an under-23 league)

Hobart maybe could put a team in, as they have a lot of juniors who get limited opportunities with the senior team. But it comes down to finaces and sending a 2nd team interstate every 2nd week, depands if the league has a travel equalisation program (all teams pay same costs for travel at start of season) may have trouble getting clubs to agree. Plus I think Hobart's priority is a womens team in SEABL befire they got an under-23 side.

Other non Vic teams are AIS (who already are an under 23 team), and I dont know enough about Mt Gambier and Sth districts and if they have the resources, players and funds for a youth team.

[mama k]

Here is the challenge....
Somebody come on here and make a positive unbiased argument why its good for Victorian Basketball to have a few powerull clubs dictate terms to Big V? Why is it good for a few powerfull clubs to break agreements resulting in minor chaos? Why is it good for one league to attempt to start up a competing competition just for there own gratification?
I am all for SEABL taking over as the 2nd tier league to the NBL if thats what they want but Big V is state based and caters to a bigger section of the players than SEABL ever will. Any action or attemped action to detact from this cannot be good forBasketball at large.

SEABL don't need to take over as the 2nd tier league to the NBL - THEY ALREADY ARE!!!!! AND HAVE BEEN FOR A VERY VERY LONG TIME. The Big V are the new kids on the block in this situation (excluding the under 23 situation). For someone who says that they are just angry at Dandenong and Sandringham, and not SEABL, you have a funny way of showing it.

If an operating group are unable to provide the services to its clientele then it is understandable that they will lose their business. Because Big V, it seems (assumption I am making) has made this into a money making venture by allowing any Tom Dick or Harry club into the league, it has watered down the quality of the competition. Teams, players, coaches don't want this, they want to play high level basketball, develop and be at the highest level possible. Big V has allowed their league to become participation based, not performance or outcomes based. And has possibly given many delusions of granduer.

[from the cheap seats]

SO all you so called "club people" out there will be happy to see your clubs and teams no longer playing because you will not be able to afford the new SEABL comp. OH thats right you will all simply jump ship and move to a Knox or Kilsyth because thats where the future is.

Big V might have made the mistake of being to participation based but I dont see to many clubs walking away from the chance to play. Is Blackburn, Darebin or Southern Pen going to be able to pay for this new comp? Where are these clubs going to compete. If all you do is make a new league expensive to play in as its only mechanism of selection then your creating another NBL like basket case.

[jake11]

For someone so smart from the cheap seats :shock: you amaze me with the constant referral to cost in SEABL!!!!

Seeing as you so smart you would know that the cost of SEABL decreases dramatically with every team that joins SEABL and even more so with ever MELBOURNE/VICTORIAN team that joins.

Each time a team joins the Administration costs go down. Everytime a Vic club joins the travel costs go down as the equalisation is spread over a wider base!

[Factor]

What do you want cheap seats? the Socialist Basketball Republic of Victoria where everyone and everything is equal?
If you can't compete you don't deserve a place, everyone can enter, its upto the clubs to raise the bar to meet the competition, not the other way.

[Poida]

If you can't compete you don't deserve a place, everyone can enter, its upto the clubs to raise the bar to meet the competition, not the other way.

Nail on the head. Toot toot!!

[from the cheap seats]

For someone so smart from the cheap seats :shock: you amaze me with the constant referral to cost in SEABL!!!!

Seeing as you so smart you would know that the cost of SEABL decreases dramatically with every team that joins SEABL and even more so with ever MELBOURNE/VICTORIAN team that joins.

Each time a team joins the Administration costs go down. Everytime a Vic club joins the travel costs go down as the equalisation is spread over a wider base!

I am sorry Jake, I had no idea that SEABL owned and airline, bus company, rail network and hotel chain. SO if three clubs join SEABL from WA or QLD then my airfares to play them go down , plus I get cheaper hotel rooms.................
I understand about Admin costing less which is something Big V should have learnt but NOT travel.

[Random Ranger]

some good debate in this forum - to make it better all members should declare their current interests including whom they represent club, Big V Board, SEABL Board, BV etc and who they are. This would make for clearer debate.

From what I hear they are a couple of Big V Board members/former employees on here grass rooted-from the cheap seats.

All should reveal their identity and declare their interest if they want to make a difference in this issue

[The_Janitor]

[quote="The_Janitor":2j5luhyl]I still say that SEABL should not be allowed to have a STATE based, Victoria only U23 comp. Big V already does even if some SEABL clubs dont like it. Any SEABL competition MUST be constructed from ALL clubs, not just Vic ones.[/quote:2j5luhyl]When did i ever write that? :o

[from the cheap seats]

What do you want cheap seats? the Socialist Basketball Republic of Victoria where everyone and everything is equal?
If you can't compete you don't deserve a place, everyone can enter, its upto the clubs to raise the bar to meet the competition, not the other way.

Now your confusing ability to compete with the ability to pay. SOme smaller clubs do compete but because they dont have hundreds of poker machines feeding the club or 600 domestic teams subsidsing them they are locked out. I get there is a cost and if you cant afford it then then you cant have it but you are driving players to the clubs who can and therefore hurting the smaller ones.
I go back to my quesion is there a place in this new world order for Darebin or Southern Pen? What about Latrobe or Keilor ?

[jake11]

For someone so smart from the cheap seats :shock: you amaze me with the constant referral to cost in SEABL!!!!

Seeing as you so smart you would know that the cost of SEABL decreases dramatically with every team that joins SEABL and even more so with ever MELBOURNE/VICTORIAN team that joins.

Each time a team joins the Administration costs go down. Everytime a Vic club joins the travel costs go down as the equalisation is spread over a wider base!

I am sorry Jake, I had no idea that SEABL owned and airline, bus company, rail network and hotel chain. SO if three clubs join SEABL from WA or QLD then my airfares to play them go down , plus I get cheaper hotel rooms.................
I understand about Admin costing less which is something Big V should have learnt but NOT travel.

A) WA never entered National ABA so i cant see them ever entering SEABL.
B) if you get another team from QLD you then play a DOUBLE header rather than a single game as is the case now!!!! Hence travel costs go down as its equalised across another club!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Same accomodations costs as current, same car hire costs as current etc etc etc. Sheesh.

[from the cheap seats]

some good debate in this forum - to make it better all members should declare their current interests including whom they represent club, Big V Board, SEABL Board, BV etc and who they are. This would make for clearer debate.

From what I hear they are a couple of Big V Board members/former employees on here grass rooted-from the cheap seats.

All should reveal their identity and declare their interest if they want to make a difference in this issue

Like that will ever happen. :lol: :shock:
I am neither but I do know a few of them.

[jake11]

What do you want cheap seats? the Socialist Basketball Republic of Victoria where everyone and everything is equal?
If you can't compete you don't deserve a place, everyone can enter, its upto the clubs to raise the bar to meet the competition, not the other way.

Now your confusing ability to compete with the ability to pay. SOme smaller clubs do compete but because they dont have hundreds of poker machines feeding the club or 600 domestic teams subsidsing them they are locked out. I get there is a cost and if you cant afford it then then you cant have it but you are driving players to the clubs who can and therefore hurting the smaller ones.
I go back to my quesion is there a place in this new world order for Darebin or Southern Pen? What about Latrobe or Keilor ?

Yes there is aplace for these clubs. Its with the Big V in Div 1, 2 or 3. None of these teams were ever going to rise to the Big V championship level either.

[Btdg]

[quote="from the cheap seats":3jtcdlyz]Here is the challenge....
Somebody come on here and make a positive unbiased argument why its good for Victorian Basketball to have a few powerull clubs dictate terms to Big V? Why is it good for a few powerfull clubs to break agreements resulting in minor chaos? Why is it good for one league to attempt to start up a competing competition just for there own gratification?
I am all for SEABL taking over as the 2nd tier league to the NBL if thats what they want but Big V is state based and caters to a bigger section of the players than SEABL ever will. Any action or attemped action to detact from this cannot be good forBasketball at large.

SEABL don't need to take over as the 2nd tier league to the NBL - THEY ALREADY ARE!!!!! AND HAVE BEEN FOR A VERY VERY LONG TIME. The Big V are the new kids on the block in this situation (excluding the under 23 situation). For someone who says that they are just angry at Dandenong and Sandringham, and not SEABL, you have a funny way of showing it.

If an operating group are unable to provide the services to its clientele then it is understandable that they will lose their business. Because Big V, it seems (assumption I am making) has made this into a money making venture by allowing any Tom Dick or Harry club into the league, it has watered down the quality of the competition. Teams, players, coaches don't want this, they want to play high level basketball, develop and be at the highest level possible. Big V has allowed their league to become participation based, not performance or outcomes based. And has possibly given many delusions of granduer.[/quote:3jtcdlyz]

Just a point on Big V - there has been no conscious decision to 'allow every Tom, Dick and Harry to play'. Big V has a mandate from Basketball victoria to provide senior, elite basketball for all BV member organisations capable of fielding a team. It offers different divisions to try and provide suitable competition for all levels of elite basketball.

Note that the definition of elite in this case is simple - it is the committment that players, coaches, clubs and supporters make to achieving the best they can in basketball - through intensive training, game night presentation etc. You could argue that division 3 is not elite, that it is participation based. But why draw the line their? By international standards, SEABL is not elite. In fact, the NBL itself is hardly elite in comparison to the Euroleague or NBA (the truly 'elite' competitions). What makes elite basketball differ from participation-based, social basketball, is the format of the games and the committment people make, and Big V has done an excellent job of expanding this beyond the 'big' clubs and a few country teams, to create a situation in which almost all the associations in Victoria can offer their players the opportunity to play at an 'elite' level.

The issues with championship division are totally unrelated to this. That division has suffered because clubs themselves are either stubborn or kid themselves over how competitive they are, and stay around too long. This became farcial in 2008 because Warrnambool had a team that was probably only div 2 standard, and got beaten by 70 every week. But before that, La Trobe city have been average for years, and teams like Bulleen, Werribee, and to a lesser degree Eltham and Diamond Valley have hung around without really pushing themselves to the next level. That was really a club decision though - clubs that waited until the Big V forced them down, rather than making the decision themselves (with the exception of Sherbrooke, who if I recall correctly timed their decision to drop quite well). That is why the quality of champ division has dropped, not because the Big V allowed Mornington to enter division 3 a couple of years ago. Of course, Sandringham and Dandenong were happy to stay as long as Big V provided an easier road to the national championships, and they're well within their rights to move to SEABL to provide better competition for their players if they wish. That move could have been better handled, though - and the rebel youth league is just a waste of resources, duplicating something already in existence.

This really shouldn't be about Big V vs SEABL, though. It should be about the best interests of the sport. Ultimately, what we need is a clear direction on where we want the sport to head - that includes at NBL level, the next tier down (whether that be some reconstituted ABA, or officially become SEABL, or whatever), provides for all clubs to play elite level ball (as in the current Big V structure), and has some form of youth structure to bridge the gap from juniors to seniors.

[from the cheap seats]

What do you want cheap seats? the Socialist Basketball Republic of Victoria where everyone and everything is equal?
If you can't compete you don't deserve a place, everyone can enter, its upto the clubs to raise the bar to meet the competition, not the other way.

Now your confusing ability to compete with the ability to pay. SOme smaller clubs do compete but because they dont have hundreds of poker machines feeding the club or 600 domestic teams subsidsing them they are locked out. I get there is a cost and if you cant afford it then then you cant have it but you are driving players to the clubs who can and therefore hurting the smaller ones.
I go back to my quesion is there a place in this new world order for Darebin or Southern Pen? What about Latrobe or Keilor ?

Yes there is aplace for these clubs. Its with the Big V in Div 1, 2 or 3. None of these teams were ever going to rise to the Big V championship level either.
SO you just want Champ men to be taken over by SEABL because its a better level and better managed? I get that but why move in on the Big V YL comp which was well representedadn growing??

[jake11]

I have never made comment about YL. I have never had anything to do with it and probably never will. But i do know teams like Mt Gambier have been wanting to get involved in a YL scenerio for some time so they didnt lose their kids to adelaide prior to going off to college as playing SEABL for Mt Gambier would have rendered them ineligible. But from my limited knowledge Big V wouldnt talk to them because they are from SA which is fair enough. At least under the proposed format Mt Gambier could now fill a team which is good for basketball in that region.

[from the cheap seats]

I have never made comment about YL. I have never had anything to do with it and probably never will. But i do know teams like Mt Gambier have been wanting to get involved in a YL scenerio for some time so they didnt lose their kids to adelaide prior to going off to college as playing SEABL for Mt Gambier would have rendered them ineligible. But from my limited knowledge Big V wouldnt talk to them because they are from SA which is fair enough. At least under the proposed format Mt Gambier could now fill a team which is good for basketball in that region.

From what I understand the new D league or YL comp excludes interstate clubs so poor old Mt Gambier still miss out.
You do raise an inportant issue here which should be cleared up. Has SEABL gone thru college eligability rules to see what this new U23 comp players can and cant play?? Big V via BA has a agreement in place for Big V YL players to not loose thier amature status. Would this also apply to the new SEABL U23 comp? Does a whole new approval need to be gained ??
Any player who plays Champ men risk's loosing that status. Its grey area so has SEABL covered it off ??

[jake11]

I think you will find that will all be covered off as if you compare administrators of each league one is fair superior to the other.

Plus, id like to turn the tables back a few years.

What is different between SEABL introducing a U/23 comp in victoria, as opposed to Big V coming in a few years ago and creating a championship league and getting ABA status, when the SEABL was already a member of the ABA and provided Victorian clubs with a pathway to ABA?

What is the difference between then and now?

[the_vandal]

The major difference is that BivV Champ is not an identicle product to SEABL. BigV Champ gave clubs to oppoirunity to play in a "State Based" comp where the travel costs would be significantly reduced. This would allow clubs who are not as strong financially to compete at the next level.
In this case here SEABL is offering an identicle product to BigV's YL. That there is the difference.

[upnorth]

surely an advantage of SEABL having a D-League (YL) is that is gives SEABL an opportunity to align D-League fixtures with SEABL fixtures.

in past players have often found themselves stuck between being a fringe SEABL player and a strong YL player. In this situation I would think that the best outcome would be that the player is still able to play their YL game, but are also in a position to warm the pine in SEABL and perhaps get there chance to see some court time there. If the SEABL team is playing at home and the YL team in playing away on the same night that opportunity is lost and players are forced to make a choice.

If SEABL used the D-League to have double headers then players are all of a sudden able to play D-League and also be available for SEABL commitments...giving them the opportunity to be playing basketball each week and also being available to be part of SEABL and work their way forwards, developing their game.

Surely this is the best development path available to clubs competing in SEABL.

[jake11]

The major difference is that BivV Champ is not an identicle product to SEABL. BigV Champ gave clubs to oppoirunity to play in a "State Based" comp where the travel costs would be significantly reduced. This would allow clubs who are not as strong financially to compete at the next level.
In this case here SEABL is offering an identicle product to BigV's YL. That there is the difference.


They are offering better administration, more games and at a cheaper cost.

They are offering their existing customers a better product. Happens in sports/business all the time.

Whats the difference????????????????

[from the cheap seats]

The major difference is that BivV Champ is not an identicle product to SEABL. BigV Champ gave clubs to oppoirunity to play in a "State Based" comp where the travel costs would be significantly reduced. This would allow clubs who are not as strong financially to compete at the next level.
In this case here SEABL is offering an identicle product to BigV's YL. That there is the difference.


They are offering better administration, more games and at a cheaper cost.

They are offering their existing customers a better product. Happens in sports/business all the time.

Whats the difference????????????????

Jake, I dont think you can say SEABL is offering more games at a cheaper cost. Cost to get into SEABL is $50k plus. Cost for Big V Champ men is $5K. I agree with the better admin but be clearer with the cost statement. If I am wrong please lay the cost's out for all to see.

[from the cheap seats]

surely an advantage of SEABL having a D-League (YL) is that is gives SEABL an opportunity to align D-League fixtures with SEABL fixtures.

in past players have often found themselves stuck between being a fringe SEABL player and a strong YL player. In this situation I would think that the best outcome would be that the player is still able to play their YL game, but are also in a position to warm the pine in SEABL and perhaps get there chance to see some court time there. If the SEABL team is playing at home and the YL team in playing away on the same night that opportunity is lost and players are forced to make a choice.

If SEABL used the D-League to have double headers then players are all of a sudden able to play D-League and also be available for SEABL commitments...giving them the opportunity to be playing basketball each week and also being available to be part of SEABL and work their way forwards, developing their game.

Surely this is the best development path available to clubs competing in SEABL.

Big V does exactly the same thing with YL so that argument is mute..........move on

[the_vandal]

ok jake, clearly you don't understand the travel cost involved in running these teams. i would love to know how you believe having to travel between tas, vic, nsw, sa and sth qld would somehow costs less in travel expences than playing in a league based solely in your own state and predominantly in your metropolitan area.
We all understand that SEABL reduces cost of entry into the league and admin fees when additional teams enter but this does not mean that the overall expense of playing in that competition is less.
Further to this the proposed SEABL u/23 comp would be purely VIC based. So again, the differnces between SEABL ans Champ are TRAVEL COSTS.
Differences between u/23 and YL comps. NIL. Bost VIC based made up of teams already competing in BigV YL. And being that the comp is VIC based only there won't be the cross fixturing in the way that several people seem to think. yes i'm sure teams will try or org double headers between their u/23's and SEABL sides as often as possible to allow YL players to suit up, but its not as though the u/23's players will be travelling with the SEABL sides and playing the warm up game before them every week.
Also, for the record, i'm not against Dandy and Sandy going back to SEABL. I think they're entitled to compete in whichever league they decided to and SEABL is clearly a higher level than Champ, however i am against the u/23's concept because it is in direct competition with an already established product. It acheives nothing more than seperating the clubs. They are ultimately playing at the same level if they are in the u/23 or YL comp, so there is no real advantage. It's not a higher level or play just the same product repackaged.

[jake11]

My point to vandal and yourself was, what is the difference to what Big V did to SEABL when Big V was started?

He came back with cheaper cost to Victorian clubs for a pathway to ABA!!! SEABL already provided a pathway. I just said that a SEABL u23 comp now provides a pathway for its current clubs who wish to run u/23 teams at a cheaper price to what Big V charge. Then i asked whats the difference between the 2?

SEABL already provided a pathway prior to Big V's birth!!!

Its the same thing.

Another point i would like to raise is how many of those clubs that played in the cheaper path to ABA Nationals came from outside Dandenong, Sandringham and Hume until this season???? Also, this season with Melbourne getting through you could hardly call them small or struggling!

Vandal:

After reading your above post i thought id edit rather than start again.

SEABL originally provided a pathway for Victorian Clubs to ABA National, Big V came in and offered Victorian based clubs a cheaper option with the same outcome.

Big V currently provide a YL competition for Victorian based clubs, SEABL have come in an offered a u/23 comp for Victorian Based Clubs a cheaper option with the same outcome.

Whats the difference?

[from the cheap seats]

My point to vandal and yourself was, what is the difference to what Big V did to SEABL when Big V was started?

He came back with cheaper cost to Victorian clubs for a pathway to ABA!!! SEABL already provided a pathway. I just said that a SEABL u23 comp now provides a pathway for its current clubs who wish to run u/23 teams at a cheaper price to what Big V charge. Then i asked whats the difference between the 2?

SEABL already provided a pathway prior to Big V's birth!!!

Its the same thing.

Another point i would like to raise is how many of those clubs that played in the cheaper path to ABA Nationals came from outside Dandenong, Sandringham and Hume until this season???? Also, this season with Melbourne getting through you could hardly call them small or struggling!

Vandal:

After reading your above post i thought id edit rather than start again.

SEABL originally provided a pathway for Victorian Clubs to ABA National, Big V came in and offered Victorian based clubs a cheaper option with the same outcome.

Big V currently provide a YL competition for Victorian based clubs, SEABL have come in an offered a u/23 comp for Victorian Based Clubs a cheaper option with the same outcome.

Whats the difference?

WHats the cheaper cost ?? Jake you claim that SEABL is offering a cheaper YL comp to Big V but you must have a SEABL team at $50k before you can have a U23 team. I said this some time ago. SEABL is making it VERY attractive for Vic based SEABL teams to move to thier new U23 comp by offering VERY cheap entry. How long will that last ?? In retail this is called LOSS LEADERS.
Why does SEABL even need to have this U23 comp when Big V catered for the group very well. It doesnt need it, it simply wants it to dominate the game in Victoria.

[jake11]

Who has said you have to be in SEABL to play in the u/23 comp

[from the cheap seats]

Who has said you have to be in SEABL to play in the u/23 comp

Its in the SEABL proposal for the new structure. In fact if you wan to play in the top level SEABL comp you MUST have both men and women as well a men and women YL.

If any one can play in this new U23 or D league comp how much is it to get in and where is the info about it?

[jake11]

And unless your on the Big V board or very close to someone who is or have been associated how would you know this?

I know of 1 club not playing SEABL who have enquired about joining the U/23 comp.

[from the cheap seats]

And unless your on the Big V board or very close to someone who is or have been associated how would you know this?

I know of 1 club not playing SEABL who have enquired about joining the U/23 comp.

Here we go again with the "enquiry" crap. One tree does not make a forest Jake.

I a not a board member and I have not spoken to one, that I know of that is so stop deflecting the issue. Can a non SEABL club enter a team inot this new U23comp in 2009 and how much would it cost???

[patm]

...Sheesh.
Hey Jake11,
There is a certain pleasing irony in seeing you frustrated with someone else’s argumentiveness !!!
Why not just quote him one of your legal jingoisms and be done with it ???

And to "from the cheap seats".
Your jumping from sophisticated argument to blue collar gutter fighting is a very interesting combination.
I can only presume this is deliberate.
If not, then you would do better to forget the emotional stuff as it only detracts from your good arguments, and turns off some who'd otherwise be supporting you.

HA HA HA HA Janitor.
I do believe you got attributed to George the Gragon.
Postby The_Janitor on Tue Dec 09, 2008 10:06 am
coach_me wrote:
The_Janitor wrote:
I still say that SEABL should not be allowed to have a STATE based, Victoria only U23 comp. Big V already does even if some SEABL clubs dont like it. Any SEABL competition MUST be constructed from ALL clubs, not just Vic ones.

When did i ever write that? :o

Poida - good to see you're still making those high quality posts too.
Nail on the head. Toot toot!!

Yes, yes, yes.
This really shouldn't be about Big V vs SEABL, though. It should be about the best interests of the sport. Ultimately, what we need is a clear direction on where we want the sport to head - that includes at NBL level, the next tier down (whether that be some reconstituted ABA, or officially become SEABL, or whatever), provides for all clubs to play elite level ball (as in the current Big V structure), and has some form of youth structure to bridge the gap from juniors to seniors.

Oh, and to the suggester of everyone revealing themselves.
It would be good wouldn't it.
But obviously it is never going to happen.
And isn't it such a shame that this sort of quality discussion can't be held out in the open, where it would potentially be of value.
Reflects the basketball environment we find ourselves in.

[Factor]

surely an advantage of SEABL having a D-League (YL) is that is gives SEABL an opportunity to align D-League fixtures with SEABL fixtures.

in past players have often found themselves stuck between being a fringe SEABL player and a strong YL player. In this situation I would think that the best outcome would be that the player is still able to play their YL game, but are also in a position to warm the pine in SEABL and perhaps get there chance to see some court time there. If the SEABL team is playing at home and the YL team in playing away on the same night that opportunity is lost and players are forced to make a choice.

If SEABL used the D-League to have double headers then players are all of a sudden able to play D-League and also be available for SEABL commitments...giving them the opportunity to be playing basketball each week and also being available to be part of SEABL and work their way forwards, developing their game.

Surely this is the best development path available to clubs competing in SEABL.
BINGO.... im glad someone else has worked this out, its one of the main reasons, it means men's double headers where development players can swap between teams.

[upnorth]

surely an advantage of SEABL having a D-League (YL) is that is gives SEABL an opportunity to align D-League fixtures with SEABL fixtures.

in past players have often found themselves stuck between being a fringe SEABL player and a strong YL player. In this situation I would think that the best outcome would be that the player is still able to play their YL game, but are also in a position to warm the pine in SEABL and perhaps get there chance to see some court time there. If the SEABL team is playing at home and the YL team in playing away on the same night that opportunity is lost and players are forced to make a choice.

If SEABL used the D-League to have double headers then players are all of a sudden able to play D-League and also be available for SEABL commitments...giving them the opportunity to be playing basketball each week and also being available to be part of SEABL and work their way forwards, developing their game.

Surely this is the best development path available to clubs competing in SEABL.

Big V does exactly the same thing with YL so that argument is mute..........move on

they're not achieving the same thing. a club with a SEABL side playing in Big V YL has a limited opportunity to have double headers with their senior side, hence limiting the opportunity for players to swing between teams. obviously IF SEABL kept on placing a preference on mens/womens double headers as opposed to SEABL/u23 double headers then there would be nothing to gain. but if they did go with seabl/u23 double headers, the develpoment side would be better placed playing in a seabl u23 league.

based on 2008, during YL rounds 1-16 (the time seabl was also running) there were 39 games played when:

A SEABL club YL side played against a non-SEABL club side WHEN their SEABL side also played in Victoria that round.

Now of course that doesn't mean there would be 39 extra double headers; fixturing isn't that easy. But some of these 39 games could translate into SEABL/u23 double headers where either 1 of or both the u23 sides would be playing before their senior side.

as it is said that the u23 competition would only be for the vic based SEABL clubs then yes there will be weeks when a clubs SEABL side is interstate and they will have to be fixtured against another vic based SEABL side and hopefully more often than not this can be arranged against another side that is hosting an interstate club.

the bottom line is that whatever gain can be made by converting these 39 lost opportunities is the gain on offer for a SEABL club to have their u23 side play in the seabl u23 comp.

[Hoopdog]

Looks like Biv v have accepted the move, only 7 teams in Champ men and women next season, SEABL now to be the Australian club championships.

"Big V Changes in 2009



The 2009 season will see various changes come into play in the Big V and with them will come an exceptionally even, elite competition of basketball.



The Big V board has accepted the applications of Dandenong Basketball Association and Southern Basketball Association (Sandringham) to move their Championship men’s and women’s teams to SEABL from 2009.



The board met last week to discuss the applications from both associations to the Australian Club Championships.



Big V General Manager Brad Noonan said it was unfortunate to see the teams go, however the decision not to challenge the applications was made in the best interests of the sport.



“It is now and always has been the view of the Big V board to work in the best interests of basketball. Given the proposed restructure of basketball in Australia, which will evolve over the next couple of years, we feel that the unity of the sport is paramount in our response to these applications,” Noonan said.



The league has been working with its Championship Division clubs during the off-season to advance the quality of the competition as well as lift the profile of its image through a series of marketing and branding opportunities.



“Representatives from each championship club together with league management met at the beginning of November to discuss ways which we could work together to achieve our goals with each person left the meeting extremely positive and focused for the 2009 season,” Noonan"

[George the Gragon]

"Representatives from each championship club together with league management met at the beginning of November to discuss ways which we could work together to achieve our goals with each person left the meeting extremely positive and focused for the 2009 season,” Noonan"

Obviously he didn't take a poll of those leaving the room. Things went from bad to worse in the month ahead.

[jake11]

Interesting no banter after last nights BV board meeting.

[from the cheap seats]

"Representatives from each championship club together with league management met at the beginning of November to discuss ways which we could work together to achieve our goals with each person left the meeting extremely positive and focused for the 2009 season,” Noonan"

Obviously he didn't take a poll of those leaving the room. Things went from bad to worse in the month ahead.


I think it should read "......met at the begining of December" Maybe it would be a good idea to proof read these things before they release them.

BTW, its only taken over a month but they have finally updated the Board details on the Big V site, although they are still not complete at least its somewhat accurate.

[from the cheap seats]

Interesting no banter after last nights BV board meeting.
I think you will find that it also had BA involved and was seeking to qualify thier stance on the new U23 SEABL comp. Give it a few hours for results to filter out.

[George the Gragon]

Under 23 SEABL comp to begin in 2009

[from the cheap seats]

Under 23 SEABL comp to begin in 2009

If you know for a fact then thats a shame but its only a year ahead of schedule as part of the overall restructure. I hope they release a statement about it to clear up all the guessing

What it shows is that there is little support for the current Big V managment and that the proposed reshaping will go ahead in 2010.

Big V clubs dont need to look any further than the current admin to reasons why. You all should be asking about the SEABL proposal and what it actually contained, not simply what a few self serving board members let you see.

[George the Gragon]

The proposed concept was one agreed to by Big V, BV and SEABL. It was not just a SEABL proposal. The under 23 comp was part of the concept.

[from the cheap seats]

The proposed concept was one agreed to by Big V, BV and SEABL. It was not just a SEABL proposal. The under 23 comp was part of the concept.
Not quite right George. It was a SEABL inspired concept in the first place. Someone had to invent it to then take it to the Big V and BV / BA boards. It might be splitting hairs but Big V had nothing to do with the "first strike" they simply had to agree to it.

[paxson]

[quote="George the Gragon":3hehzkyp]The proposed concept was one agreed to by Big V, BV and SEABL. It was not just a SEABL proposal. The under 23 comp was part of the concept.
Not quite right George. It was a SEABL inspired concept in the first place. Someone had to invent it to then take it to the Big V and BV / BA boards. It might be splitting hairs but Big V had nothing to do with the "first strike" they simply had to agree to it.[/quote:3hehzkyp]

Actually cheap seats its you his not quite right. At the meeting between Big V, BV and SEABL the concept was tabled and presented by Darryl Neal. SEABL representatives just accepted it.

[patm]

All quiet on the South Eastern front?

It seems to me that whomever in this thread made the comment about the SEABL forces maybe choosing this time to move deliberately, was spot on.

Basketball Australia are the only body in a position to resolve this problem (yes I am certain it is a problem) of competitions competing with each other.
Clearly they have taken the path of least resistance, rather than trying to arrive at any quality outcome.
No doubt they have too many other problems on their hands (self inflicted?) with their premier NBL league.
Let’s just defer it all to the latest wide ranging review panacea – that always works really well.

So while I now get to watch the senior teams compete against each other that I wanted.
It appears I will now lose the opportunity of watching some of the youth league games I was already getting to see.

[from the cheap seats]

[quote="George the Gragon":3daksb5v]The proposed concept was one agreed to by Big V, BV and SEABL. It was not just a SEABL proposal. The under 23 comp was part of the concept.
Not quite right George. It was a SEABL inspired concept in the first place. Someone had to invent it to then take it to the Big V and BV / BA boards. It might be splitting hairs but Big V had nothing to do with the "first strike" they simply had to agree to it.

Actually cheap seats its you his not quite right. At the meeting between Big V, BV and SEABL the concept was tabled and presented by Darryl Neal. SEABL representatives just accepted it.[/quote:3daksb5v]

Oh come on for gods sake..............who broke ranks in the Big V and circulated an alternative league concpet paper........DANDENONG AND SANDRINGHAM. I hardly think Big V created the alternative league which basicly make it redundant. This whole thng regardless of good or bad, was started by those two clubs and then built on by SEABL. Why cant you just admit who fired the first shot and move on. I dont care if Big V managment is incompetant, stop trying to paint those two clubs and SEABL as white knights..............

[mama k]

[quote="from the cheap seats":2j49fg4b][quote="George the Gragon":2j49fg4b]The proposed concept was one agreed to by Big V, BV and SEABL. It was not just a SEABL proposal. The under 23 comp was part of the concept.
Not quite right George. It was a SEABL inspired concept in the first place. Someone had to invent it to then take it to the Big V and BV / BA boards. It might be splitting hairs but Big V had nothing to do with the "first strike" they simply had to agree to it.

Actually cheap seats its you his not quite right. At the meeting between Big V, BV and SEABL the concept was tabled and presented by Darryl Neal. SEABL representatives just accepted it.[/quote:2j49fg4b]

Oh come on for gods sake..............who broke ranks in the Big V and circulated an alternative league concpet paper........DANDENONG AND SANDRINGHAM. I hardly think Big V created the alternative league which basicly make it redundant. This whole thng regardless of good or bad, was started by those two clubs and then built on by SEABL. Why cant you just admit who fired the first shot and move on. I dont care if Big V managment is incompetant, stop trying to paint those two clubs and SEABL as white knights..............[/quote:2j49fg4b]

Why on earth can't you accept the fact that two teams wanted to move to a bigger and better competition, not to just piss you off, but for what they might see as the betterment of their clubs and their players development!!! I'm sure they didn't just decide to move just to piss you off - however funny it is to see you cry and winge. What do you want SEABL to do, reject two clubs from entering their competition just so you are happy. You need some serious therapy and soon!!!!

Nobody's painting them as white knights - you just want to hang them all. Chill out!!

[George the Gragon]

The concept paper put forward by Sandringham and Dandenong actually made both leagues redundant.

[from the cheap seats]

OK I get it. You all think that this is good and that I am wrong for caring about the way it was handled. I am also wrong for trying to make sure that HOW and WHY clubs and indiviuals did what they did is made public.
I get most of you think that Dandenong and Sandringham broke ranks and joined SEABL for the greater good of basketball. Also that SEABL's new league is going to be better for everyone.
Well time will tell.

[jake11]

Time will tell that there will only be one league of any substance.

As with everything in life its cyclicle. All that's happened is things have gone full circle again and the SEABL is still what it was, the better, stronger comp and Big V has gone back to being the CVIBL!

[from the cheap seats]

Time will tell that there will only be one league of any substance.

As with everything in life its cyclicle. All that's happened is things have gone full circle again and the SEABL is still what it was, the better, stronger comp and Big V has gone back to being the CVIBL!

NO. We will all be playing a a different, revamped and renamed league. It will not be SEABL and it will not be BIg V or CVIBL as they will not exist. That is the best outcome. One league with room for all and a proper pathway for juniors.
But I bet I know who will be running it.................

[Homer]

It will not be SEABL and it will not be BIg V or CVIBL as they will not exist. If those two teams leave Big V and join SEABL, SEABL will still be called SEABL and I cant see Big V changing their name either whereas, CVIBL went a long time back.

[Factor]

Time will tell that there will only be one league of any substance.

As with everything in life its cyclicle. All that's happened is things have gone full circle again and the SEABL is still what it was, the better, stronger comp and Big V has gone back to being the CVIBL!

NO. We will all be playing a a different, revamped and renamed league. It will not be SEABL and it will not be BIg V or CVIBL as they will not exist. That is the best outcome. One league with room for all and a proper pathway for juniors.
But I bet I know who will be running it.................
What do you mean no?
SEABL is a league which anyone can participate in, and now has a proper pathway for juniors .. FFS get it into your head, you can kick and squeal all you like but you wont chane the facts.

[patm]

One league with room for all and a proper pathway for juniors.
Yes that would be the best outcome for basketball.
Removing these attachments to history and this unnecessary combativeness over the various competitions.
But don't think that just because there is going to be another review that that will necessarily happen.
If history is any indicator, then it is very likely that it won't happen.
Leadership is needed - where will it come from?

[Poida]

Time will tell that there will only be one league of any substance.

As with everything in life its cyclicle. All that's happened is things have gone full circle again and the SEABL is still what it was, the better, stronger comp and Big V has gone back to being the CVIBL!

NO. We will all be playing a a different, revamped and renamed league. It will not be SEABL and it will not be BIg V or CVIBL as they will not exist. That is the best outcome. One league with room for all and a proper pathway for juniors.
But I bet I know who will be running it.................
What do you mean no?
SEABL is a league which anyone can participate in, and now has a proper pathway for juniors .. FFS get it into your head, you can kick and squeal all you like but you wont chane the facts.

Another case of "Let everyone join in just to make everyone feel included! yay!". I think its a jealousy thing tbh.

I fail to see how Big V Champ in its current climate is good for Basketball. Teams getting absolutely annihilated week in, week out. Doesn't improve the crap teams and doesn't improve the teams doing the arse kicking.

Well done Sandy and Dandy for making the move to provide a better senior level of comp for their clubs :)

[from the cheap seats]

Time will tell that there will only be one league of any substance.

As with everything in life its cyclicle. All that's happened is things have gone full circle again and the SEABL is still what it was, the better, stronger comp and Big V has gone back to being the CVIBL!

NO. We will all be playing a a different, revamped and renamed league. It will not be SEABL and it will not be BIg V or CVIBL as they will not exist. That is the best outcome. One league with room for all and a proper pathway for juniors.
But I bet I know who will be running it.................
What do you mean no?
SEABL is a league which anyone can participate in, and now has a proper pathway for juniors .. FFS get it into your head, you can kick and squeal all you like but you wont chane the facts.

Another example of a person with little knowlege of whats going on. Did I actually say SEABL doesnt provide a pathway ??? NO you tosser but you couldnt wait to have a go at me and put your take on what I wrote.

Factor shut up and pay attention.
I am not puting down SEABL, Iam stating the situation moving forward. For the game to improve there needs to be ratioanlization at the competition and management levels.

The 2010 league will not be SEABL or Big V. It will be called something different and it will cover a range of divisions including U23, D league and possibly a lower YL. It will probably be governed by BV and run by a new board with the old SEABL management team ( no Noonan hopefully). I really dont give a rats arse what its called but whatever it is it had better be a league which provides enough scope for smaller clubs to participate so they have a pathway for thier juniors. The big power clubs will always attract players but smaller ones need to accomodate thier own loyal juniors and give them something which is seen to be a higher level. It also needs to be within reach of clubs who have talent but might not have the financial resources to fund a high entry fee.

[Btdg]

There seems a bizarre amount of triumphalist gloating in this thread from SEABL supporters who are apparently glad to see Big V taking a backward step. Just remember, we're all supporters of basketball (supposedly), and the last thing we need is petty in-fighting. Club-level basketball is one of the strengths, and Big V has been a huge growth area in that regard over the last 10 years, at a time when the sport has been suffering at other levels.

Cheap seats is right - what we need is a consolidation of basketball at the elite amateur level. SEABL and Big V should merge to form a proper national amateur championship. Add Hume City and Waverley to SEABL, drop the rest down to the next level of Victorian competition. Youth League teams run concurrently with the senior teams at all levels.

With all the dissing on Brad Noonan, its probably time to offer a bit of a defence for the bloke. Since he took over the job, the permanent staff of the Big V has decreased from 4 to 2, as a result of Basketball Victoria cutbacks. At the same time, the league has expanded rapidly, adding something like an additional 20 teams, mostly at Youth League level (and its pretty difficult to refuse a YL team to an existing club that are strong in other areas, like a Coburg or Keilor). The biggest problem cited on here is that the Big V aren't concerned enough with quality of competition, but are too presentation focused, and I'd agree with that. Streaming on-line stats for every game are great, but who wants to look at those high-quality updates when its a 70-point blowout. More attention to the quality of basketball (which is the reason players and spectators are there anyway), and less on marketing updates might have saved Sandringham and Dandenong.

At the end of the day, Big V is still where it was a 3-4 years ago in terms of champ level. At the lower levels, it is strong and vibrant, with representation across almost every BA-affiliated club in the state, and way ahead of the old CVIBL. SEABL fanboys should remember that the sport needs both at the amateur level - a top division, as well as lower divisions to keep as many people as possible playing the game.

[Factor]

Another example of a person with little knowlege of whats going on. Did I actually say SEABL doesnt provide a pathway ??? NO you tosser but you couldnt wait to have a go at me and put your take on what I wrote.

Factor shut up and pay attention.
I am not puting down SEABL, Iam stating the situation moving forward. For the game to improve there needs to be ratioanlization at the competition and management levels.

The 2010 league will not be SEABL or Big V. It will be called something different and it will cover a range of divisions including U23, D league and possibly a lower YL. It will probably be governed by BV and run by a new board with the old SEABL management team ( no Noonan hopefully). I really dont give a rats arse what its called but whatever it is it had better be a league which provides enough scope for smaller clubs to participate so they have a pathway for thier juniors. The big power clubs will always attract players but smaller ones need to accomodate thier own loyal juniors and give them something which is seen to be a higher level. It also needs to be within reach of clubs who have talent but might not have the financial resources to fund a high entry fee.
I think you're the clueless one, but i wont resort to cheap personal attacks to get my point across...

Oh, the league wont change its name or morph into your big v league so tough luck. There will be a SEABL in 2010 and beyond weather you like it or not.

[patm]

There seems a bizarre amount of triumphalist gloating in this thread from SEABL supporters who are apparently glad to see Big V taking a backward step. Just remember, we're all supporters of basketball (supposedly), and the last thing we need is petty in-fighting...
Yes - every moment spent on this - by BigV or SEABL supporters (and there is far more time being wasted on this than just the posts in this forum) is more lost opportunity for the betterment of basketball.
The only ones who should be blamed for this, is the body, that we all pay for, that allows it to happen.

[from the cheap seats]

Another example of a person with little knowlege of whats going on. Did I actually say SEABL doesnt provide a pathway ??? NO you tosser but you couldnt wait to have a go at me and put your take on what I wrote.

Factor shut up and pay attention.
I am not puting down SEABL, Iam stating the situation moving forward. For the game to improve there needs to be ratioanlization at the competition and management levels.

The 2010 league will not be SEABL or Big V. It will be called something different and it will cover a range of divisions including U23, D league and possibly a lower YL. It will probably be governed by BV and run by a new board with the old SEABL management team ( no Noonan hopefully). I really dont give a rats arse what its called but whatever it is it had better be a league which provides enough scope for smaller clubs to participate so they have a pathway for thier juniors. The big power clubs will always attract players but smaller ones need to accomodate thier own loyal juniors and give them something which is seen to be a higher level. It also needs to be within reach of clubs who have talent but might not have the financial resources to fund a high entry fee.
I think you're the clueless one, but i wont resort to cheap personal attacks to get my point across...

Oh, the league wont change its name or morph into your big v league so tough luck. There will be a SEABL in 2010 and beyond weather you like it or not.

YOu know what FACTOR you really are just plain stupid. And I will use a personal comment about you mental capacity because YOU keep quoting me with things I have not said just to prop up your own statements.

WHere did I say it would be a Big V league.
This is the last time will respond to one of your dumb, one sided comments. GO back and READ what I wrote.
You dont have a clue as to what has been proposed as the alternative format for this level of basketball.

[upnorth]

[quote="from the cheap seats":33u35tg5]

Another example of a person with little knowlege of whats going on. Did I actually say SEABL doesnt provide a pathway ??? NO you tosser but you couldnt wait to have a go at me and put your take on what I wrote.

Factor shut up and pay attention.
I am not puting down SEABL, Iam stating the situation moving forward. For the game to improve there needs to be ratioanlization at the competition and management levels.

The 2010 league will not be SEABL or Big V. It will be called something different and it will cover a range of divisions including U23, D league and possibly a lower YL. It will probably be governed by BV and run by a new board with the old SEABL management team ( no Noonan hopefully). I really dont give a rats arse what its called but whatever it is it had better be a league which provides enough scope for smaller clubs to participate so they have a pathway for thier juniors. The big power clubs will always attract players but smaller ones need to accomodate thier own loyal juniors and give them something which is seen to be a higher level. It also needs to be within reach of clubs who have talent but might not have the financial resources to fund a high entry fee.
I think you're the clueless one, but i wont resort to cheap personal attacks to get my point across...

Oh, the league wont change its name or morph into your big v league so tough luck. There will be a SEABL in 2010 and beyond weather you like it or not.

YOu know what FACTOR you really are just plain stupid. And I will use a personal comment about you mental capacity because YOU keep quoting me with things I have not said just to prop up your own statements.

WHere did I say it would be a Big V league.
This is the last time will respond to one of your dumb, one sided comments. GO back and READ what I wrote.
You dont have a clue as to what has been proposed as the alternative format for this level of basketball.[/quote:33u35tg5]


Where did Factor say that you did say that? Their line is "Oh, the league wont change its name or morph into your big v league so tough luck."

He never said that you said it would be a Big V league. He just said that it would not change names OR morph into your Big V league.

Cheap Seats...chill the fuck out! Nobody is achieving any good for the game in carrying on like there is an all out civil war in the basketball world.

Say something constructive or shut the hell up...and bring on the ABL!!

[catcountry]

Cheap seats is right - what we need is a consolidation of basketball at the elite amateur level. SEABL and Big V should merge to form a proper national amateur championship. Add Hume City and Waverley to SEABL, drop the rest down to the next level of Victorian competition. Youth League teams run concurrently with the senior teams at all levels.

Yet another who seems to have missed the point completely. No need to merge SEABL and Big V to form a proper tier two national comp, SEABL already is one and always has been. No need to debate it. Big V has risen above their station for the last couple of years but have been now found out as pretenders. The various managements realise this and support it. Big V will, as it should return to the next level down as a very strong state league.

Good management:
Big V not fighting the shift of Sandy and Dandy and taking a realistic approach to the situation.
Dandy for having the foresight to return to the SEABL now the opportunity for an inside run to the national club championships is gone.
Sandy for finally having the courage to make the jump
SEABL for welcoming the two new teams

As for the under 23, it had to happen and Big V caused it not SEABL. Big V's insistance that you can't play Big V YL and SEABL if your association have a senior Big V team, has stifled flow of juniors into a number of SEABL teams. The reason for this is purely Big V generated to keep the best youth in senior Big V comps. Weaken SEABL and strengthen Big V its as simple as that. SEABL had to take action and decisively did. Good on 'em.

[elton branded]

Cheap seats is right - what we need is a consolidation of basketball at the elite amateur level. SEABL and Big V should merge to form a proper national amateur championship. Add Hume City and Waverley to SEABL, drop the rest down to the next level of Victorian competition. Youth League teams run concurrently with the senior teams at all levels.

Yet another who seems to have missed the point completely. No need to merge SEABL and Big V to form a proper tier two national comp, SEABL already is one and always has been. No need to debate it. Big V has risen above their station for the last couple of years but have been now found out as pretenders. The various managements realise this and support it. Big V will, as it should return to the next level down as a very strong state league.

Good management:
Big V not fighting the shift of Sandy and Dandy and taking a realistic approach to the situation.
Dandy for having the foresight to return to the SEABL now the opportunity for an inside run to the national club championships is gone.
Sandy for finally having the courage to make the jump
SEABL for welcoming the two new teams

As for the under 23, it had to happen and Big V caused it not SEABL. Big V's insistance that you can't play Big V YL and SEABL if your association have a senior Big V team, has stifled flow of juniors into a number of SEABL teams. The reason for this is purely Big V generated to keep the best youth in senior Big V comps. Weaken SEABL and strengthen Big V its as simple as that. SEABL had to take action and decisively did. Good on 'em.


The best statement in this entire thread, right here. Period!!

[patm]

The best statement in this entire thread, right here. Period!!
And no matter how bold you want to make it - that too is just your opinion - as everyone else's is.

[from the cheap seats]

I think allot of you have missed the boat on this one as you clearly dont know what was proposed BY SEABL in the first place.

The origonal new league concept put by SEABL to BV and Big V board has a NEW league structure including a number of "divisions" including a D league and a lower YL. It is also proposed to have a new name.

I am not saying that we must have a new league I am simply refering to the FACT that SEABL has already proposed it and that it will more than likely be the prefered model which BV goes with.
Those of you with SEABL connections why dont you go and ask your club reps to show it to you. You Big V supporters out there unfortunatly you cant see it because the BIG V board selectivly edited the versio which they showed the Champ team clubs. BUT if you are serious about wanting to see what SEABL proposed, PM me and I will send it.

Stop trying to protect something which simply doesnt need protecting. SEABL can absorb the Big V teams into a better run competition, its what they WANT to do. And if they want to rename it then thats thier right. Rebranding goes on all the time in business and is the best way leave the past behind, soccer has done it as has netball.

[Polly]

You guys conveniently forget that QBL is the best league.

[jake11]

You conveniently forget polly that its best LEAGUE not best team.

Anybody can win the ABA running predominately Natinal Players. Cairns men, Townsville women 2 years in a row. The parity in the QBL is worse than the Big V!!!!