Vancouver: Why Didn't The NBA Succeed There? Version 2.0 [Archive]

Durbansandshark

27-05-2009, 09:34 AM

What prompted me to write about that city and the NBA again was reading the news on the forums of the Vancouver 2010 Winter Olympics at www.gamesbids.com--I'm a member on those boards too and utilize the same board name here, albeit as two words. There, I spotted a story from the Vancouver Province about the Indiana Pacers being up for sale and possibly bought by Vancouver Canucks owner Francesco Aquilini offering to move them there. But Aquilini denies this.

I don't like this. There's too much tradition, success, and establishment in Indianapolis that's been built up over four decades. I can understand the Simon brothers, Herb and Melvin, wanting to sell, to offset any issues with their mall ownerships or to get leverage for a new arena deal. If you know anything about the state of Indiana, it's the residents' fervent love of basketball to the point of religion ("In 49 states it's basketball. But this is Indiana..."). Aquilini needs to just focus on the Canucks for now and the court case over the ownership controversy already at the Supreme Court of Canada.

Memphis is going to up for sale soon, as possibly Sacramento, but bring the Grizz back!

I just became a new member of www.vancouvernba.com. Haven't posted anything yet there. I'll introduce myself over there with my shortened name. I happily invite you Aussies and Kiwis over there. I'll get more thoughts carried over from the last years since I originally wrote this.

Durbansandshark

29-05-2009, 06:34 AM

In an early December 2008 ESPN.com podcast interview with ESPN's Bill Simmons, NBA Commissioner David Stern made a startling admission that the NBA screwed up in Vancouver. When Simmons asked Stern what was his biggest regret as the head of the league, Stern replied Vancouver's short life in the NBA saying it's "a great city. We disappointed them and we disappointed ourselves." Adding that he questions that maybe the NBA shouldn't have expanded there at all and just added Toronto.

Of course, Vancouver spent six awful season in the Lower BC Mainland with not even a whiff of playoff contention or an All-Star Weekend, before leaving for Memphis in 2001. Then again, Toronto has yet to host the latter itself. Bad players (mixed with a few solid ones like Abdur-Rahim, Bibby, and Dickerson), bad draft picks, and ill-fitting coaches to amassed an awfully bad 101-359 record there.

But don't get your hopes up, any of you fans wishing for a Vancouver return soon. In any case, if Vancouver is going to come back in the NBA fraternity, it will be well after the 2010 Vancouver Winter Olympics, hopefully once the whole wide world says what the city has to offer and be on the lips of the public. So devastating was the Vancouver experience, Stern says the league has basically ruled out such a return. It took New Orleans 24 years after the Jazz left their original home for Salt Lake City to get back into the NBA by taking another team. Besides, the NBA has no plans to expand in the future. There's still some bitter feelings upon the departure after its first impression within the Metro Vancouver area; it clearly wasn't the fans' fault. When asked about a potential NBA return to Vancouver, Stern says, "I don't think we could ever go back. I think it [is] a great city. But we didn't take advantage of the opportunity."
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/postedsports/archive/2008/12/11/219167.aspx
www.vancouversun.com/Sports/head+Stern+regrets+Vancouver+experience/1063631/story.html
(read the feedback following the latter)

One thing I wished the Vancouver-era Grizzlies could've done more was aggressively tap into the lucrative and growing Chinese, South Asian, and other immigrant communities, who are possibly more interested in other sports than (ice) hockey (the Canucks), the CFL's British Columbia Lions, minor league baseball of the Canadians, and rugby--the MLS is coming with the Whitecaps in 2011. It was only during the last season there, the Grizzlies even bothered with a Chinese-language version of their official website. Radio game coverage in Chinese and Hindi would've helped.

If the Grizzlies were still in Vancouver right now, this is how the Northwest Division configuration would resemble:

Denver Nuggets
Minnesota Timberwolves
Portland Trail Blazers
Utah Jazz
Vancouver Grizzlies

Oklahoma City Thunder (yuck! :( ) would leave for the more geographically natural Southwest Division, practically switching division with the Grizz.

Micheal Heisley felt in part that Memphis has greater practice with pro basketball in the minors and with the ABA, Memphis (St.)'s success in the college game, and a more grassroots basketball footing than Vancouver was a better fit. Well let's see, Memphis had the ABA's Pros, Tams, and Sounds, the Rockers (WBL), the Hot Shots in the Global Basketball Asociation (relocated to Pensacola, Florida mid-season), Memphis Fire (USBL), and then the Houn'Dawgs in the current joke incarnation of the ABA. That may be the case, but attendance isn't justifying the prior experience.

The Memphis Grizzlies right now are, in the words of one commentator, "a welfare case supported by Federal Express". He was shocked to spot 3000 fans at the modern FedEx Forum at a Grizzlies game. If Heisley stops cutting the checks, that team is "toast", saying Vancouver was better. Vancouver is undoubtably larger in population and fan base than what Memphis has. Attendance averages comparisions of Vancouver (General Motors Place) and Memphis (FedEx Forum) bear it out in Vancouver's favor and support (all 41 home game each season, excludes playoffs since Vancouver never made it): www.apbr.org/attendance.html

Vancouver Grizzlies

1995-96: 17,183
1996-97: 16,574
1997-98: 16,109
1998-99: 16,719
1999-00: 13,899
2000-01: 13,797

Memphis Grizzlies

2001-02: 14,415
2002-03: 14,910
2003-04: 15,188
2004-05: 16,982
2005-06: 15,793
2006-07: 14,654
2007-08: 12,770

Durbansandshark

11-06-2009, 09:30 AM

Vancouverite basketball fans must have a sense of schadenfruede when Forbes magazine recently proclaimed the Memphis Grizzlies as the worst-run sports franchise in North America (minor league teams need not apply here). Again, is it the city's fault that Stu Jackson didn't know how to operate a team? Is it Vancouver's fault that Steve Francis blew off Vancouver? Is it the city's fault that Michael Heisley had an agenda to actually move them and did so?

I personally think, based on the evidence like attendance, despite the two playoff appearances in Memphis, I'd think Vancouver deserves a second chance soon. If Charlotte and New Orleans can return to the NBA, Vancouver can too...but not before Seattle. That rumour about a mangement group taking the Indiana Pacers and moving up there is just exactly that, a rumour. Indiana basketball fans will continue to support them in the long run. In this economy, NBA commissioner Stern made it clear and admitted the state of the league and that soem teams are in trouble financially. If this recession doesn't end in North America like in Vancouver, look for some teams to seek elsewhere. Perhaps that explains why the NBA, NFL, and MLB went to federal court to support the NHL's efforts to keep the cash-strapped and bankrupt Phoenix Coyotes, ironically moved from Winnipeg, Manitoba in 1996, in the Valley of the Sun. No league wants to lose control where their franchises can go.

Durbansandshark

17-07-2009, 05:11 AM

I know for a fact that Lenny Wilkens, prior to being lured back for a sadly brief time in Seattle, was in discussions with rich and potential Vancouver investors over the subject of getting the city back in the NBA be it with an expansion team or moving a franchise up there. But nothing newsworthy came out. Besides, the NBA isn't planning to expand any time soon. Maybe Lenny resumed looking into that. I don't know for sure.

A Really Bad Bass Player

23-07-2009, 05:09 PM

I've got a friend who married a good mate of mine, she is a native of Vancouver, and spoke to me of the heartbreak the city felt, and the betrayal. I think D+S's attendence stats are very interesting reading. Meagan believed another basketball franchise would be a goer in B.C., but I think the NBA needs to make sure a oke like Francis can never happen again. You sign up to play in the NBA, you go where you are drafted. You don't like it? See how Italy or Poland are, because that is where you are going. It also needs the Raptors to be actually succesful for longer than one season, and play regular pre-season and even some early season matches out of there.

I hope Vancouver gets another shot.

glockers

30-07-2009, 02:05 PM

I was in Vancouver earlier this year. A really great city with a ready made arena. It was covered in fog, but I still liked the vibe of the place. The snow fields on its outskirts are cool too.

But I don't see expansion happening anytime soon and as mentioned losing Indiana would be a terrible idea.

I think having Memphis and Oklahoma are good things for the NBA. They are in that college basketball heartland. In fact I think the NBA pretty much as their teams in the right places.

Problem is whether smaller markets can truly compete for the title. Reducing the cap might help.

Sacramento and Boston are my teams, I do feel maybe Sacramento is the least justified NBA market. Yet a few years ago they were selling out and massively successful.

I guess some the issues belong in a different thread.

My point is Seattle, Vegas and Vancouver are the three North American cities that can feel ripped off about having no team, but I don't see room for more teams and I don't see what teams can be moved?

redred

03-08-2009, 10:49 AM

Durbansandshark

03-09-2009, 05:45 AM

Something to tide us over until I write my additional thoughts. An interesting breakdown at the big Canadian cities outside of Toronto that could host a NBA franchise. Notice Quebec City, home of the Kebs in the PBL and former home of the NHL's Nordiques isn't a part of the discussion (basketball isn't as big there). Halifax, the largest city in the Marintime provinces in Nova Scotia, is too small and distant to be mentioned but has a passion and support for basketball. Each have their pros and cons, but I like to see Vancouver get a second chance.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/243151-oh-canada-the-next-nba-destination

Durbansandshark

01-10-2009, 09:00 AM

I used to live in Vancouver & Toronto, before coming home to Aus for awhile.. The support for the Raps in T-dot is manic. They are crazy for NBA basketball over there, and see the neighbouring NY Knicks as a true rival, but the problem is the American players prefer to play on their own soil. The Raps have to massively overpay to attract American free agents etc. Plus it seems like a lot of American media is against them doing well, too.

Now that the game is a lot more international it's easier for them (just check out how international their roster looks for next season! It's like Euro All Star lineup) but trying to build like this in two different cities would be difficult imo. It's hard enough to attract free agents to one Canadian city, even when this city is one of the biggest and wealthiest in the league.

Vancouver doesn't really strike me as a manic basketball town- which is what it would need to be for a Canadian franchise to survive and do well. They are so laid back and hockey-loving, a lot of people didn't seem to care one way or the other about an NBA ball club. They only remember Big Country Reeves and shrug.

So yeah, no basketball in Vancouver. I really don't think it's llikely.

As far as NBA cities just waiting to move though- i reckon Memphis whose owners are like the new Clippers & Milwaukee is on thin ice.

Well said, redred.

Many NBA players (of the non-international variety) make legions of excuses of not going up to Toronto: It's too cold and snowy. I don't want to live up there. Their money is in a funny multicolo(u)red manner. Their taxes are too high. They don't have ESPN up there so I can't watch Sportscenter (Canada has TSN, which actually has a special partnership with ESPN--logos are similiar and does have Sportscentre, Rogers Sportsnet, RaptorsTV, The Score, and FOX Sports World Canada). So you can imagine how a prospective NBA free agent would view Vancouver. Steve Francis was said that he was reluctant to go up to Vancouver when drafted because he would be away from his grandmother, and, given the immigration regulations from Immigrations Canada, he may have a point. Still, he should've sucked it up and go there IMHO. Quality of life is better up there.

One of things the players are ignorant or confused about is their knowledge of Canada. It's something not really integral to the American education system--that is, learning in depth about many nations outside of the United States. Generally speaking, many of us Yanks are ignorant about Canada. If you find an American out on the street and quiz them on who is the current PM of Canada and what party he or she leads (Stephen Harper of the Conservative Party in this case), let alone the oppositional parties and their leaders, the provinces and their premiers (synonmous with our governors in the US), and the cities except for Toronto, Montreal, and Vancouver. You'll get nothing; it's only someone like me presents themselves in one's knowledge that makes us, well, stand out in our knowledge...and I have yet to visit Canada all my young life. Nor are many of us curious. I've learned about our northern neighbors ever since I was a child when I paid attention to every bit and detail like news and sports that came my way as well as watching the occasional Canadian TV show on PBS. We never think about what Canada has to say about us Americans, even though we both speak English but theirs is more Commonwealth-oriented. It would be nice if the NBA made a publication for those about to play in Canada regarding the basics in work, immigration, government, education, laws, and interacting with Canadians. But the NBA presumes other outlets can do it better dealing with living and working in Canada.

I told you this story previously a few years ago, but it bears repeating here: Anthony Avent arrives in Vancouver to play for the Grizzlies. A chauffer picks him up from the airport and goes into his limo. Along the ride through the streets of Vancouver, Avent notices the paucity of black people. He asks the limo driver, "Hey, where do all the brothers hang?" The limo driver responds jokingly, "Oh, the Grizzlies dressing room." That in a nutshell indicates how a lot of African-Americans don't see a lot of the black community in Vancouver and the rest of BC. Canada's black population--they don't like being called African-Canadians, I heard--is no more than 3%, but it's growing. And most of them are concentrated in Toronto, Montreal, and Halifax. That's not to say blacks don't exist all over Canada outside of those cities. They do exist in British Columbia, just not that many, but there is a history in that province that often gets overlooked. Plus, British Columbia is progressive.

I too don't get the impression that Vancouver, even during the Grizzlies years, is basketball-mad like Toronto. Toronto has more of a mature grassroots goings-on with that with more than sufficient media coverage to boot for the sport. There was support and a fan base as NBA basketball brings glamour. But Vancouver didn't have practice in pro basketball or consistent success in the CIS with UBC and SFU at the time to let it mature. Anything Vancouver was doing and performing would inevitably be compared to Toronto. Also, more importantly, Toronto has a much stronger corporate base than Vancouver to tap into and support major league teams longer to withstand inherit problems like a weaker loonie (by US comparisons). Albeit progressive and diverse, Vancity is laid back and beautiful with a lot to do there like hiking, fishing, rowing, jogging, cycling, and rollerblading--one of the healthiest cities in North America. Its pro sports roots lie more in ice hockey of course and soccer. Incidently, Vancouver Whitecaps and the Portland Timbers will make a Pacific Northwest pro sports triad again since 2001 when those two teams join the MLS in 2011 to duke it out with the already-existing Seattle Sounders.

To be continued...

Durbansandshark

03-11-2009, 08:11 AM

Where did the info (or rumour) regarding the possibility of the Indiana Pacers going to Vancouver came from? Vancouver sports radio station TEAM 1040 AM CKST reported the story of Vancouver Canucks owner Francesco Aqulini and his sports company Vancouver Canucks Sports and Entertainment (formerly Orca Bay Sports and Entertainment) were interested in the Pacers. Again, let's treat it as a rumour assuming the Simon brothers couldn't work an agreement with Indianapolis Capital Improvement Board. And again, it would be a severe mistake if Indianapolis lost their team; the Pacers success in the ABA and its stellar of players up to Danny Granger helped put Indiana basketball on the map. Aqulini since won his case against former partners Ryan Beedie and Thomas Gagliardi in the Canadian Supreme Court over the ownership.

Fans packed the General Motors Place to see their fave BC son Steve Nash and his Phoenix Suns play against the Portland Trail Blazers, the only NBA team remaining in the Pacific Northwest, in a preseason game. The Trail Blazers spoiled the homecoming 111-93 in front of a sellout crowd who erupted everytime Nash made a good play.

Durbansandshark

03-12-2009, 08:49 AM

www.theglobeandmail.com/blog/from-deep/bad-timing-for-nba-in-vancouver/article1335635

Another something something about the Grizz's time in Vancouver. This time it's the evaluation of the draft picks the Grizzlies had from 1995 to 2000. In a virgin NBA market that Vancouver was at the time, it's not naive to believe the Grizzlies could draft some rookie star power. However, everything's so much easier in hindsight. Bryant Reeves had some folksy charm. Was Stu Jackson wrong to draft him in 95? No. Big Country had bulk and the soft hands in the eyes of many NBA scouts, and Vancouver probrably had the foresight that Shaq (and to a lesser extent, Arvydas Sabonis and Luc Longley) was coming to the West in a few years time. So there clearly was awareness that Vancouver should never be pushed around in the paint; that worked with Stu philosophy of building around a center as opposed to Isiah Thomas building around a PG like Damon Stoudemire in Toronto. But it was a mistake to give him that $65 million contract extension, and Reeves subsequentially ate himself out of the NBA. The latter was solely on him.

Shareef Abdur-Rahim was indeed talented and their best draft pick and player. But while Shareef was a capable of being an All-Star a few times even on a better team even if he wasn't (should've been one in Vancouver n, he was no franchise player--too low key and often got lost up there. Charles Barkley once said of The Future that he's the "rookie MVP" with Allen Iverson "the playground MVP" [sic]. To carry the team on his shoulders as the talisman was a miscast.

Mike Bibby turned out OK, but it took a departure to Sacramento with better talent surrounding him to show his steez. No impact superstar though. Antonio Daniels is better suited as a role player. Yes, we all know about Steve Francis and Stromile Swift saga (Francis was good until the injuries hit while Swift was an underachieving bust), but the draft classes in those years were poor.

Matter of fact, when you get right down to it, Vancouver's time in the NBA was a result of bad timing. Their drafts weren't that good--no true franchise players. What if Stu Jackson decided to bring aboard Victoria's own Steve Nash, either as a draft pick or in a trade, to Vancouver (actually offered three times)? During the years when they needed high draft picks and stars to sell the sport and sustain it, it couldn't happen. The draft classes weren't exactly stellar. Downright weak and horrible. What if there was another GM instead of Stu Jackson running the show? Would he pick Nash as part of a possible second first round draft pick? Had the owners hold on until the Canadian dollar rebounded up to par with the US dollar? What if the NBA didn't institute that onerous expansion first round draft rule agreement on both Toronto and Vancouver? Even if the Grizzlies were elsewhere like Las Vegas or Tampa Bay, I don't think the team would prosper in any case anywhere with the way the team was assembled. What if they held on after the expansion team draft agreement expired, got the #1 pick, and selected Yao Ming?

I disagree with the part that Michael Grange comments about the GM Place not being shared in revenue. At the time until 2001, both the Grizzlies and the Canucks were owned together by first Arthur Griffiths and then John McCaw. So I presume the suites there too were shared so they couldn't pick and chose. Yes, the Toronto Raptors made it partly due to shared ownership (eventually Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment), a bigger market, stronger corporate base, and a younger venue that is Air Canada Centre. But Vancouver couldn't catch the breaks that Toronto did with Vince Carter and Tracey McGrady, both developed faster than realized. I think maybe had the NBA expanded later, like what Mike suggests, in 2002, and no expansion agreement restrictions, really good draft players would be in store with true franchise potential. There was no stable and decent coaching or management team--Lionel Hollins was the most successful, percentage-wise. Pulling the plug so quick was a travesty. Why was Stu Jackson there? Has he admitted to his mistakes publicly? To be fair to Stu though, as I stated earlier, he didn't exactly have a cornicorpia of fresh young talent. Managing an expansion team in any pro team sport is never easy, but he committed a tremendous amount of damage through his awful, awful decisions and lack of creativity. Plus Otis Thorpe didn't really wanted to be in Vancouver (supposedly to provide veteran leadership)--and that showed when he played only 47 games in 1996-97 aging and surly up there, setting the stage for Francis' drafting and pouty refusal.

I believe another reason why players didn't want to play up there stems from the fact that the Vancouver basketball operations was developing a negative rep throughout the league with a sucky team reflecting that. Clearly not a reflection on the beautiful city. It's was almost like the Clippers, but even the Clips managed to make the playoffs once in a blue moon during Vancouver's time. Based on the sorry way the NBA treated Vancouver, revealed by David Stern's admission, I don't think the NBA wanted to see that city succeed. The Grizzlies didn't stand a chance; support was clearly there. Add a better quality GM and better draft picks and other players making at least a halfway competitive team, Vancouver could have a more Naismith Cup rivalry with Toronto...and Vancouver STILL drew better than a lot of other present NBA markets these days since with better teams! Demand from players to be there is low. Don't forget, there weren't many foreigners NBA stars back, but globalization was slowly but surely coming. The percentage of NBA players that were American was greater then than it is now. European, Asian, African, Canadian, Latin American, and Oceanian players don't care where they go in the NBA because they (generally) have a greater and wider worldview than sadly a lot of Americans. Every single one on the Vancouver rosters were American--no Canadians. Had they stayed, Vancouver would feature at least a couple of international talents on the team by now making meaningful contributions, reflecting on the changing demographics within Canada and the NBA an upside to Vancouver's pro basketball development. You think Hidayet Turkoglu, Yao Ming, Andrei Kirilenko, Pau Gasol, or Yi Jianlian would mope about Vancouver? Doubtful.

Durbansandshark

22-01-2010, 11:46 AM

We're only weeks away from the start of the Vancouver 2010 Winter Olympic Games, Canada's first since Calgary 1988. And with that approaching, it got me thinking. If the Grizzlies were still up there right now as they should be, the team would locked away from Vancouver (and the General Motors Place, called the Canada Hockey Place for the duration of the Olympics) admist all the intensely high security and be undergoing an extensive road trip for at least a month, with the NBA All-Star Weekend in the Big D being any semblance of a break.

Looking back, it would've been better had they were anchored in the Pacific Division instead of being in the Midwest. I'm saying this on geographical grounds for the most part. Question becomes: Who would be willing to swap with them? Could Phoenix had done it? Probrably not, I think, Jerry Colangelo liked his rivalry with the Evil Laker Empire, and they were Midwest Division members until 1975. Not saying it would've been much easier for Vancouver: the Western Conference as a whole was chock-a-block with very good PFs and Cs at the time.

Got a little story I just read over at SI.com: during their inaugural season in a sellout home game against soon-to-be-72-win Chicago in November 1995. The Grizzlies were shockingly ahead of the Bulls in the fourth quarter. After hitting a jumper to bolster the lead, Derrick Martin had the gall to trash-talk to Michael Jordan, who was sitting on the bench, running his mouth saying to His Royal Airness, "I told you we're going to beat you tonight". Jordan almost immediately stood up and then checked himself back in the game. Then he proceeded to tell Martin, "Little man, I told you not to trash-talk me." And then His Airness proceeded to almost single-handedly beat Vancouver. During this, he later told one of Martin's teammates (heard from a fan at one of the end of the court), "Y'all can blame big mouth over there for your loss and y'all WILL lose tonight. I'mma make sure of it..." Classic MJ. Why did Martin do it? Martin was a young player back then and didn't know any better. Then again, he wanted what Jordan was made of and riled him up. Yeah, MJ graciously obliged. Martin and Vancouver barked up the wrong tree--Why, of all people, would he do that to MJ. Nonetheless, Vancouver fans were in awe and watched with bated breath what he would do next with the ball in his hands.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ShNfeFxij28

Durbansandshark

26-03-2010, 10:11 AM

An important component to having a big-time pro sports franchise in a virgin market without a lot of tradition or grassroots in that sport is naming a charismatic head coach. Stu Jackson and Arthur Griffiths (possibly) didn't really do that with Brian Winters. In retrospect, his style and coaching philosophies were dull. But expansion team coaches tend to be sacrificial lambs, anyway. And Winters, a player known for defense in both his playing days and as an assistant, slightly outlasted Toronto's first coach Brendan Malone, another known longtime assistant. Then again, the pickings probrably were slim, I'd like to find out who else was interviewed for the dream of being Vancouver's first coach.

This brings me into this: the constant shuffling of coaches in the Vancouver years, which Winters' firing brought about, a bigger problem for them than just Winters. When that happens, it sends a message that the franchise has a philosophy but can't stick with it over the long haul. That adds to the mess the market was in. That means confusing the young players in your defensive and offensive schemes with subsequent coaching changes. Jazz coach Jerry Sloan made a note of this after a game against Vancouver there in their team's last season when he spoke to the Vancouver Sun. I think Vancouver could've used a "going young" route and develop a core of talented players (with some vets for leadership) for a several for the time of contention that the Charlotte Bobcats later used.

Oh, and I found out the other day that Michael Dickerson has returned to playing basketball by signing with a second division Spanish team.

Durbansandshark

22-04-2010, 09:23 AM

It was inevitable that we would look into the Stevie Franchise saga that was an important part in the decline of the Vancouver Grizzlies. Despite Stu Jackson wonderfully drafted him and Steve refused, reportedly on the account that he would be separated from his grandmother, if I recall. And Immigrations Canada would not work on that matter. Anyhoo, Jackson and the rest of the Grizzlies staff brought over the rook to Vancouver and show him around the beautiful city. Francis bought several rap CDs there and dined with them. Definitely showed him the General Motors Place and all the Grizzlies artifacts like the clubhouse, selling him how he will be revered for his hard work and helping his teammates with his superstar talents if he said yes.

Jackson knew a can't-miss player like Francis does not come often for Vancouver to lift the fortunes of the franchise. Yao would not act like what Francis did if Vancouver was allowed to stay on for another season. But why did he drop the ball with Francis? Forcing his hand on Francis, though it would teach Francis a lesson, would make Jackson look bad, especially with the NBAPA. They missed surely some good players, even some international ones.

Your thoughts?

Cram

22-04-2010, 09:55 AM

Being that I'm living in Vancouver at the moment, I'd love if if there was an NBA team here. To have the option of going to so many games - and a chance to see every team - would be sweet. While its not really a hoops town, having a pro team here for 15 years, you imagine it would move closer to that.

Hockey does dominate here, and perhaps the town isnt big enough for 2 major league sides? Will be interesting to see how the White Caps go.

Durbansandshark

24-04-2010, 06:40 AM

If you can, Cram, try checking out CIS college basketball home games at the University of British Columbia and Simon Fraser in suburban Langley. Well actually, Simon Fraser is going to the NCAA in D2. But the latter's there in Vancouver. Or how about the IBL's Vancouver BC Titans, who also call Langley home

Yeah, it's a shame that Vancouver does not have the NBA in their midst these days since 2001. If it stayed, Vancouver could've hosted an NBA All-Star Weekend, which it never got to do. Hosting that would cement Vancouver's emergence in pro basketball. Then again, Toronto hasn't done so yet with its much-stronger support for basketball. Vancouver doesn't, as the recent Winter Olympics shown, snow all that much and its kinda temperate, so it could hold some golf games at its links, for example. Trend is with the more recent All-Star Weekends is having them in Sun Belt cities, where the tourists can go and have those rounds of golf and other outdoor-like festivities. Wasn't really the case with Dallas, where snow was on the ground.

There actually is another major league team located in Vancouver before the Whitecaps join the MLS. And that's the British Columbia Lions (www.bclions.com) in the Canadian Football League. Not really the NFL, it has significant differences from that, but it's pro. For that reason alone, Vancouver could support the NBA again, just needs to develop stronger hoops grassroots even further.

Yeah, 15 years of NBA basketball in Vancouver from 1995 would be nice.

Durbansandshark

08-07-2010, 06:15 AM

Vancouver Grizzlies' old home General Motors Place gets a name change to Rogers Arena (http://canucks.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=533854)

When I first read this story, I immediately thought of General Motors' struggling finances, even in Canada. But nothing really of the kind.

Recent times there have been significant changes in the names of sports arenas and stadiums largely due to shifting of the company's marketing focus or absorbed/going belly up. And this is not restricted to the USA and Canada. Not really been too keen on corporations having sports facilities named after them, despite them shelling out millions of dollars to name them, but I'm getting used to that for years. After all these years since 1995, it has been named the General Motors Place (except for the duration of the Vancouver Winter Olympics in February, it was named the Canada Hockey Place to comply with IOC guidelines). Because of this, it was affectionately known as "The Garage". Now the Vancouver Grizzlies' old home gets a new name. Nice to know that the Pacific Coliseum at the Pacific National Exhibition Park is still called such since its opening. But people will get accustomed to the change.

There's already a sports facility in Canada named after Rogers Communications, a major part of Canada's massive Official Olympic Host Broadcast Media Consortium for Vancouver 2010 and London 2012 with Rogers Sportsnet and OMNI--Toronto's Rogers Centre, formerly the SkyDome, of which I still call it as.

More from the CBC that actually mentions Rogers in the name change (http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/07/06/bc-canucks-gm-place-renamed.html)

Durbansandshark

11-09-2010, 06:18 AM

Vancouver NBA made its return months ago with a radical overhaul and much more beef in its features than just a forum. I haven't installed my two cents in for this, but I hope so soon. This is a great place for info regarding them; they even archived stuff from the old Vancouver-era Grizzlies official NBA website and added a blog on the developments looking back on the Vancouver Grizzlies and news on a potential NBA return.
http://vancouvernba.org

Lately in basketball circles, when the subject of Vancouver and the NBA is brought up, a growing number of the movers and shakers express support for a Vancouver return, despite some saying no way. Charles Barkley is among the most recent voices declaring so. He even went as far as saying he would like to see more NBA franchises in other Canadian cities. Problem with that last statement is, outside of Montreal, the other Canadian cities, despite in a few of them having NBA-ready venues like Ottawa's ScotiaBank Place, Calgary's Pengrowth Saddledome, and Winnipeg's MTS Centre, are medium-sized or small in population and market; do they have the needed streams of revenue to keep them for years on end compared to bigger metropolises, mostly located south of the border. Few like Halifax's Halifax Metro Centre, home of the PBL's Halifax Rainmen, have no luxury boxes at all. Also, do these cities each have a strong grassroots local basketball culture to tap easily into? There's CIS basketball programs and provincial basketball federations, both of which helps and will offer support, but that's not enough. I do know for a fact that Quebec City has plans underway for a new arena project that's really more for the NHL's possible return to that city.

Vancouver will have another taste of NBA basketball coming up next month with a preseason game at the Rogers Arena (formerly General Motors Place) on October 6 when the Phoenix Suns and hometown British Columbia hero Steve Nash return to the city as they face Canada's only NBA team the Toronto Raptors, making their first appearance to Vancity since the Grizzlies' move to Memphis in 2001 ended the Naismith Cup rivalry. For Toronto coach Jay Triano, a Vancouver native and of the greatest Canadians to play basketball making his own homecoming to BC, he helped finalized a deal to have the Raptors' training camp over in Vancouver and 10th anniversary Canadian men's Olympic basketball reunion.
www.vancouversun.com/sports/Raptors+coach+Triano+keen+bringing+exhibition+game +Vancouver/3297447/story.html

Durbansandshark

07-10-2010, 08:05 AM

What kind of impact did the Vancouver Grizzlies had in their time there on the college basketball programs in the British Columbia Lower Mainland (UBC, Simon Fraser, Trinity Western, and, to a lesser extent, Victoria and VIU (both at nearby Vancouver Island), UFV, and UNBC) and vice versa? Since I've only seriously followed CIS basketball for several years now, it is a really interesting question to ponder and haven't really done any research to check on that. I can say with great certainly that, while not really exponentially ushering those programs to becoming big-time NCAA-like level status and with all that entails within Canadian borders, money, issues, upscale arenas, problems and all, it did help bring further attention and planted an important layer to basketball's development in British Columbia. If you really follow CIS basketball for eons and eons, you would know that there were important moments that, in their own small ways, helped paved the way for the NBA's arrival in BC. For example, think about that legendary CIS dynasty of the Victoria Vikings that ruled Canada from 1979 to 1986 that featured the great Eli Pasquale, who famously mentored Victoria's own Steve Nash, and was one of the great Canadian basketball products in his time. Jay Triano was certainly another mainstay for Vancouver basketball donning the maple leaf and is a Simon Fraser legend, but he never tasted a CIS title. UBC won two titles in three years from 1970 to 1972. In the early days of that, the Victoria women managed a threepeat from 1980-82 and won again in 85, 87, and 91. During the Grizzlies' time in Vancouver from 1995-2001, Victoria was the only team of the ones mentioned that won it all (TWU, UFV, UNBC, and VIU haven't thought of themselves as members yet. Simon Fraser dabbled with the NAIA in this time frame.), even in the women's game where it won twice in that span (and won again in 2003).

The Vancouver Grizzlies, for its all-too-brief stay there, did help bring publicity, however miniscule, to a sport that was, while growing in popularity even before its arrival, basketball roots weren't as strong as ice hockey, baseball, or even soccer. The hope was for the inertia to bring bigger pub to those schools and help cultivate an even stronger basketball base and depth. Vancouver residents who weren't or aren't much basketball fans could have been encouraged to check the teams out with the Grizzlies in the air. Since the move, Simon Fraser women's team became a national powerhouse with its five titles and UBC enjoyed a memorable rivalry against the Clan with the Bronze Baby being theirs in 2004, 2006, and 2008, seemingly alternating with SFU as the two battled for the best recruits out of BC. The British Columbia Thunderbird men's team are a two-time runner up in the W.P. McGee Trophy Game, though surely they would like to win it all this season. There are interesting aspects to this we can cover them every now and then. Even Simon Fraser's departure to the NCAA D2, college basketball is still strong in BC. Don't know of any Grizz players attending any of the games, but it would have been nice to see them giving support.

When the Vancouver Grizzlies were shown on TV, the broadcasters were BCTV, a CTV affiliate now BC's Global representative CHAN-TV since August 2001, and CHEK-TV 6 in Victoria. Then CHEK solely and then CTV Sportsnet Pacific (now Rogers Sportsnet Pacific), Canada's first regional sports network, airing 25 games each of the last three seasons from 1998. CTV showed some games including the first two games. If they were still there, I can assure you CBC would air select games and so will Rogers Sportsnet Pacific and Raptors NBA TV (it would been called something else in BC maybe GrizzliesTV or NBATV Canada) and The Score, like it is with the Raptors nowdays. On the radio side, Grizzlies matches were on in their first years, CKNW AM, also owned by then-Grizzlies owner Arthur Griffiths, held their broadcasting rights but actually aired game of the week simulcast with CKLG, where the bulk of their games were. At that time both stations were under different ownership. In subsequent years, Grizzlies games were on CFMI 101 FM with the final year's radio broadcaster being, to coincide with the first full year of Heisley's ownership, CISL 650 AM.

Durbansandshark

15-10-2010, 09:42 AM

From the April 27, 1994 edition of the CBC Evening News

http://archives.cbc.ca/sports/more_sports/clips/17191/

Vancouver Canucks owner Arthur Griffiths, as head of the Vancouver Basketball Partnership, announces the NBA will make its way to Vancouver in 1995 that got conditionally approved on Valentine's Day that year. Analysts at the time were wondering how could Vancouver absorb the multi-million dollar endeavor (worth C$125 million at the time) with the projected C$100 million it will produce for the city's economy. One worried it could affect the CFL's BC Lions, which of course, didn't happen; the Lions are still around. Also, note the rare sight of the Vancouver Mounties cap.

Durbansandshark

21-10-2010, 09:51 AM

At the time of the Vancouver Grizzlies' move to Memphis in June 2001, the Canadian dollar (or the "loonie" as it's so affectionately called there) was 67 cents to the US dollar. Now, it is between 90-95 cents to the US greenback, now closer to par. Moreover, the BC economy wasn't really at one of its finer points then in 2001. Vancouver has prospered during the last decade economically. You would think now's a good time for the NBA to return in Vancouver, as long as it stays favourably for Canada.

When Bryant "Big Country" Reeves arrived to Vancouver's Lower Mainland, he had a down home charm that really appealed to Vancouver basketball fans in its first few years there as a new NBA area. Hell, his popularity back then was big that fans, men and women alike, were treated to discounted or free tickets to Grizzlies home games outside the GM Place when they got crewcut haircuts just like him! His rookie season, though it sure had a lot of lengthy bumps along the way for the team as a whole, was very promising with an average of 13.3 ppg and scoring was up 16.3 ppg in 1997 with 41-point performance against Boston. He even fished with Ahmad Rashad along downtown Vancouver's waterway on NBA Inside Stuff. To be fair to Stu Jackson, at the time, there several, notable big bulky centers at the time, especially out in the Western Conference, the Grizzlies had to contend with Shaq, Arvydas Sabonis, and Luc Longley; the team would be weak at center without someone like him to at least counter that in some way to withstand punishment. Expansion teams are weak to begin with, and it was Jackson's philosophy to supposedly build around a center whereas, meanwhile in Toronto, Isiah Thomas built around Rookie of the Year PG Damon Stoudemire. Plus, from an evaluation from The Sporting News 1994-95 NBA Preview, Bryant possessed "soft hands" for scoring. What was problematic lied in the mistake, of course, in granting Big Country that massive contract and always-cited (as one of the major problems that led to Vancouver's demise) six-year $61 million extension. Weight-control problems and subsequent injuries took its toll on him (like his back forcing him to retire shortly after the Memphis move), prompting a dramatic drop in his numbers and field goal percentage. Ike Austin ended up being the starting center with Reeves demoted to backup, thus losing some of his minutes. Though he played well as such, the starting center-like contract didn't justify it. Surely, he looks back on it and would admit the criticisms from fans, the Vancouver media, and the execs were justified toward him and would take respeonsibility. If only he'd keep his weight under control, because he was so likeable there, he could have been more productive and consistently to have Vancouver them improve and make at least get a sniff of the playoffs.

Vancouver Sun's Brad Zeimer conducted an interview with owner Michael Heisley (http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?p=4873160) recently reflecting on the Grizzlies' move and the factors that led to it, saying that the "O Canada' singing owner "never really intended to move the team" after buying them. Personally, I think he's lying, but what else is he going to say upon reflection when he knew the exchange rate wasn't favorable...and still losing money in Memphis, just not as much. The team still haven't won a playoff game. On the Vancouver end, there's no love lost .

Durbansandshark

23-11-2010, 10:45 AM

The full game of the Vancouver Grizzlies' memorable home game against the Chicago Bulls in November 30, 1995 during the early days of the Bulls' unstoppable march towards history recently got uploaded. They had the lead and a potential upset, but Derrick Martin had to run his big, fat mouth at Mike. You know what else happened afterwards; it only added to Vancouver's seemingly endless misery. Footage taken from WGN, Chicago's superstation. If somebody could upload the first Grizz games, I'd be happy.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=wBOBieMRCxk
www.youtube.com/watch?v=119MfRMT9Qg
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab-xKZwTcUI
www.youtube.com/watch?v=WK0OqkTEs7E
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PAOyL9hiuw
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ug-pIp71xZI
www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzVBnRsCRBE
www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEWS-6POTUo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJDvNaU2vwE
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op2iw4PgL2I

Former Vancouver Grizzlies guard Antonio Daniels attempts his NBA comeback by starting with the new NBDL's Texas Legends. Visit the NBDL thread to a link on that.

Get yourself a Mike Bibby Vancouver Grizzlies Hardwood Classics road jersey from Adidas:
www.sportsmemorabilia.com/sports-products/mike-bibby-vancouver-grizzlies-adidas-throwback-jersey.html

Durbansandshark

02-12-2010, 11:25 AM

bucky

02-12-2010, 02:51 PM

Another preseason NBA game in Vancouver featuring one of British Columbia's favorite children, Steve Nash, and another round of talks lamenting Vancouver and the NBA. When the Raptors played a scrimmage for the fans at UBC's War Memorial Gym as part of their training camp there, it was hard to gauge the interest of Vancouverites for a return to the NBA as part of that. Not sure if there is a Toronto-Vancouver love-hate rivalry thing, but overall there is a difficult basketball culture if you're a Vancouver resident with no constant NBA presence there acting as an anchor. So Vancouver coming back to the NBA is not a realistic option for now.
www.montrealgazette.com/sports/back+Vancouver+realistic+option/3634039/story.html

By holding training camp in Vancouver this year, the Raptors tried to re-ignite that spark, to mixed results. The Raptors’ open scrimmage could not fill the 3,000-seat War Memorial Gymnasium at the University of British Columbia. There were few signs around town that the team was even here.

I moved to Vancouver 2 months before the Raptors open scrimmage and never once saw a single sign or anything else promoting it, Nor did anyone else I know here. Sad really because I would have been there with a few people but I actually found out about it on a message board the day after .

I think the NBA could work here but as you said, there is no NBA presence on TV. Yes you can see Raps games on sportsnet 1 but its rarely talked about on sportscentre (on TSN) or any other programs and even the much anticipated Miami @ Cleveland game is burried on TSN 2 which I and a lot of other people dont have.

On a good note for Vancouver and the NBA is the recent release of the Grizzlies hardcourt classics jerseys. When I was at the sports shop the owner said they sold all but the XXL jerseys the day they arrived so clearly there are still NBA fans about.

Durbansandshark

20-01-2011, 09:06 AM

I moved to Vancouver 2 months before the Raptors open scrimmage and never once saw a single sign or anything else promoting it, Nor did anyone else I know here. Sad really because I would have been there with a few people but I actually found out about it on a message board the day after .

I think the NBA could work here but as you said, there is no NBA presence on TV. Yes you can see Raps games on sportsnet 1 but its rarely talked about on sportscentre (on TSN) or any other programs and even the much anticipated Miami @ Cleveland game is burried on TSN 2 which I and a lot of other people dont have.

On a good note for Vancouver and the NBA is the recent release of the Grizzlies hardcourt classics jerseys. When I was at the sports shop the owner said they sold all but the XXL jerseys the day they arrived so clearly there are still NBA fans about.

Raptors' games are broadcast not just on Rogers Sportsnet (12 games a season as of 2010-11). TSN shows 23 Raptors games--along with many and various others of the NBA regular season games shown on ESPN and TNT it gets first dibs on with exclusive Canadian TV rights on the conference finals and the NBA Finals. TSN 2, the newer sports channel for the CTVglobemedia family that owns TSN that began airing last year, gets 25 Raptors games with the ESPN/TNT regular season NBA games (including most of the TNT Thursday games) and the playoff matches that aren't on TSN. Rogers Sportsnet One airs 23 games a season with plus 35 other NBA regular season games. It also airs 22 playoff games. Though it doesn't air any Raptors games at all, Raptors TV, the Canadian version of NBATV there, shows various NBA, NBDL, and FIBA games that are on ESPN, TNT, and NBATV, as well as some playoff games. CBC, CTV, City TV, and The Score, the latter being a Canadian sports network itself losing soem rights on some entities lately that could spell its demise, formerly Toronto Raptors games in recent years.

Good to see Vancouverites still holding some fondness to the Grizzlies and their time there by selling out the Mike Bibby jerseys. Apparently, enough time passed for there's some genuine curiousity about the city's short-lived NBA connection.

How Vancouver's generally classy fans gave their unprosperous Grizzlies franchise a more deserving sendoff from the Lower Mainland than it perhaps deserve, record-wise. Big Country gets a game ball for being there the longest and playing in the Vancouver Grizzlies' 100th victory. Yeah, the NBA fans and some of the young players at the time like Shareef there truly deserved better, no need for that to be mentioned.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1022337/index.htm

Here's another major reason why Vancouver didn't succeed: it takes a while, perhaps generation or two, in a city like Vancouver to be educated about a sport like basketball, where it isn't quite fertile there, to gain a strong foothold in the local culture. Sure, there are plenty of NBA fans living there, and the NBA has such a strong brand and support being right there at the major sports explosion boom during the 1990s. But there are lots of casual ones there too, just like everywhere here in North America. Even soccer is more established there with the Whitecaps, partially owned by British Columbia fave Steve Nash, coming to play this year in the MLS. The name holds a lot of tradition with the franchise won the 1979 NASL Soccer Bowl. Truth be told, the Grizzlies aren't Vancouver's first foray into pro basketball; its predecessor back in 1988 endured even worse support in a venue that wasn't ideally suited for basketball as their better choices wanted more $$$ than the owners could give them (Rogers Arena wasn't built yet)...and yes, the team was woeful and sorrier and only lasted a season with an even worse attendance for home games and endured personnel changes of its own that would rival the Grizz. Furthermore, like the Grizzlies, there's always a wonder what if a notable native Canadian (now a coach in the NBA) would've played. I present to you the Vancouver Nighthawks from the 6'4" and under World Basketball League.
http://archive.vancourier.com/issues01/02501/sport1.htm

Durbansandshark

12-02-2011, 07:06 AM

All this talk of the ongoing Cleveland Cavaliers 26-game losing streak harkens back to when the Vancouver Grizzlies endured their then-NBA record in-season record of 23 consecutive losses. That happened after surprisingly winning their first two games of their debut regular season (at Portland in the first regular season NBA at the Rose Garden and then their home opener versus Minnesota capped with a Chris King buzzer beater). For a fleeting moment, I thought they would surprise lots of people as an expansion team. But the expansion team realities immediately hit them hard, of course. Incidently, there happens to be one common denominator between the Vancouver Grizzlies and the current Cleveland Cavaliers: Byron Scott. Scott's lone season at Vancouver with that long streak surely steeled him for this unfortunate thing the Cavs are going through. I'm very sure he told them stories of that and how, since many of them were notable vets, coped with that humbling experience that all expansion teams deal with in order to keep their heads up and continue to motivate his players as a defense mechanism.

Yes, that Grizzlies team had a pretty good excuse for being that bad: they were a team in their first year of existence, despite having solid veterans who were admittedly past their prime (Scott, Gerald Wilkins was injured and recovering from the ACL dating from last season, Greg Anthony, Theodore "Blue" Edwards, Kenny Gattison, and Benoit Benjamin) with young players like marquee rookie Big Country and the aforementioned Chris King filling up the roster under a third of the normal NBA team salary cap as they worked to get to know each other better as a team. Though in Scott's case, he was accustomed to winning of course as an oppressive emissary of evil. But the Grizzlies fans still filled the then-GM Place then, eager to see some hot NBA action.

Durbansandshark

23-02-2011, 01:34 PM

Some VERY interesting stuff involving Vancouver and the NBA lately as we approach--can you really believe it?--the 10-year anniversary of the Grizzlies' move from their original home of Vancouver to their current den of Memphis.

Could it really be possible that Vancouver Canucks owner Francesco Aquilini wants to buy the New Orleans Hornets from the NBA, breaking the little hearts of those who want to see them go to Seattle, a quick 45-minute drive south? Personally, I wish the Hornets would stay in the Big Easy; it has endured enough instability issues in its 23-year existence. The pro basketball support from the fan base is clearly there but not quite the economic right now. Currently, the Canucks are a prime Stanley Cup contender, and Aquilini would like, with some partners to find, generate more revenue and open dates for the Rogers Arena for a NBA return. Funnily enough, Stern recently regrets the Supersonics' contentious move too along with the Grizzlies' one (but regrets won't bring them back).
http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattlesports/2011/02/16/canucks-owner-wants-hornets-in-vancouver-globe-and-mail/
www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/basketball/canucks-owner-sets-sights-on-moving-hornets-to-vancouver/article1908929/
www.vancouversun.com/sports/commish+David+Stern+have+regrets+about+Vancouver+S eattle/4290133/story.html

The world's most livable city, as the Economic Intelligence Council just proclaimed, actually still holds a basketball culture that did indeed got a boost during the Grizzlies' time there. Presently, NBA culture, specifically, still lies in hibernation and not as widespread as the Canucks culture/fanbase after its departure, despite BC native Steve Nash coming back there for Phoenix Suns exhibition games and NBA fans still donning Grizz jerseys. Now some of the important players from Vancouver days like Michael Heisley, Arthur Griffiths, Peter Ufford, and Noah Croom also discuss other things that went wrong. Heisley still loses millions of money on the Memphis Grizzlies. The following Vancouver Sun article reiterates some of the thoughts and issues I have for the city and its prospective return to the NBA family on this thread. Even with its new economic muscle thanks in no small part to the Winter Olympics exactly a year ago. Under better circumstances than what's going on now in Vancouver (which is still a plus), Vancouver could return.
www.vancouversun.com/sports/Grizzlies+years+later+Still+hibernation/4320606/story.html

Where are they now? Vancouver Grizzlies not-so-illustrious six years edition. Some of these stories on what happened to a few of the players are very interesting. A few actually like Vancouver, outside playing for them. Couldn't get all of them. Only Mike Bibby is still playing actively in the NBA.
www.vancouversun.com/sports/Hunting+down+Grizzlies+years+later/4312436/story.html

Durbansandshark

04-03-2011, 12:22 PM

Any extensive losing streak can be painful, grim, and bleak. At least when Vancouver played their first season, an excuse can be made for them in their then-record losing streak of 23. This articles shows from a few of the people who were there how they coped with it after surprisingly winning their first two in Portland and then at home against Minnesota (before stopping the losing temporarily against Minnesota, also at home) like Cavs coach Byron Scott and coach Brian Winters. Neither remember the specifics, as specific memories vanish over time. But Scott drank a lot of Coors Light back then during this!
www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2011/01/a_lesson_for_cleveland_cavalie.html

I'll get additional thoughts on Vancouver possibly coming back next week.

Durbansandshark

29-03-2011, 11:24 AM

Delayed, yes, but that's OK. I can take my time with this thread as much as I want.

With the Vancouver Whitecaps, co-owned by NBA star and known soccer lover from nearby Victoria Steve Nash, now kicking around the soccer ball as one of the two new teams in the MLS this year and only the second Canadian representative in the league after Toronto FC (and the Montreal Impact coming next year), it's perhaps a good time to see how would the Grizzlies would fare in the Vancouver pro sports pecking order if they were still around now. Any Vancouver sports follower, and is actually admitted here on these threads, surely knows that the Canucks, one of the premier Stanley Cup contenders, are the top dogs in it (bring home Stanley back to Canada!). I would assume, given the strong brand awareness the NBA has, the Grizzlies, would be second with as much extensive media coverage like the Canucks. The Grizz wouldn't have to worry too much about the Whitecaps because they would play at different seasons so that it won't conflict as much with a little overlap. I think the Whitecaps, with its silky-smooth marketing hatched for over two years, would be third because it's such a fresh, exciting--actually a reincarnated version from the NASL and A-League days--thing with some glamour to it and of the fact that the city has such a multicultural population to tap into to connect the sports with (like the sizable Italian, Portuguese, and the growing Latin communities the city has) along with the city's surprisingly strong soccer roots, structure, and heritage. Then it would be the CFL's British Columbia Lions, which are now really getting into the corporate sponsorship thing like having limited revenue streams yet has plenty of passionate fans, despite being there the longest in the Vancouver sports landscape with its familiarity, tradition, and a strong league. Does have a strong brand itself. How are the Lions going to cope and connect with the Vancouver soccer community and of the leverage they have with this year's Grey Cup held there is key. And they have experience dealing with the Whitecaps back when it was in the NASL and won the NASL Soccer Bowl in 1979 while sharing a stadiums during the same time space (the old Empire Stadium and later the BC Place). Lastly the minor baseball team the Vancouver Canadians bring up the rear. I think they'll all flourish with their respective fan bases if each does their thing in marketing and PR right with significant crossover among them.
www.theprovince.com/business/fp/Canucks/4462601/story.html

Vancouver gave Anaheim a nice look a decade ago, but talks with the Disney Corporation floundered. Disney held strong opinions about the matter as Heisley looked into moving into the Honda Center (then the Arrowhead Pond).
www.sacbee.com/2011/03/24/3499626/anaheim-ducks-owner-arena-manager.html

If the Grizzlies were still in Van-City, I think its broadcasting would now just be only on cable, and strongly suspect it would be a combo with Rogers Sportsnet Pacific, TSN, and RaptorsTV (could've been called NBATV Canada if it stayed).

Durbansandshark

16-04-2011, 06:33 AM

A decade has now passed since the Vancouver Grizzlies left for Memphis and played their last game as such when they won over the Golden St. Warriors on the road in Oakland 95-81. Can you believe it if you're a Grizz fan back up in the Lower Mainland? That final one brought a case of both deja vu and irony when they spotted the franchise's first coach manning the sidelines for Golden St.--Brian Winters! Winters took over when Dave Cowens got fired during the season in one of the most notable blunders during the Warriors ownership of Chris Cohen. With that win, the Grizzlies avoided the 60-loss plateau.

Guess it's too much of stretch that being in Memphis isn't all that successful. Sure getting into the playoffs a few, but sporadic, times and having a Coach of The Year in Hubie Brown since moving can count as subsequent improvements. But Memphis, the whole damn franchise, has yet to win a playoff game, let alone a series. This could be the year though where a postseason win is progress. Just wish if it was all still in Vancouver.

Sometimes I wonder what if the Grizzlies hanged on and drafted Yao Ming with the #1 pick in 2002. The Chinese basketball authorities would like Vancouver for it has such a massive Chinese community that would undoubtably support Yao as the public face of the team and forget about Stevie Franchise. Big Country would be relegated to the backup for he would not be as athletic. More next time.

Wild 1

22-04-2011, 04:10 AM

Is this some kind of record for % of posts by one poster for one thread and length of time between posts with just 1 person contributing? ;)

Durbansandshark

07-05-2011, 02:49 AM

Is this some kind of record for % of posts by one poster for one thread and length of time between posts with just 1 person contributing? ;)

Maybe so here. But the whole Vancouver-era Grizzlies is fascinating to me since I am a fan of the city, even when they were existing up there in the BC Lower Mainland. More on that later.

So the Memphis Grizzlies not only win their first-ever postseason games in the franchise history, but also their first-ever playoff series too. This team is surely on the rise. Will Michael Heisley reconsider selling the franchise? We'll see.

And the reaction up in Vancouver to this? Muted. Near-silence, actually. Can't really find any reaction online in the local papers like the Sun and the Province to deal with that. Vancouver sports fans are too preoccupied with the NHL's Vancouver Canucks' march to bring the Stanley Cup back to Canada for the first time since 1993 as the best contender remaining for it. Also the MLS incarnation of the Vancouver Whitecaps also takes up the landscape. I'm sure there are some remaining Grizz fans there who are happy with this, but they are a small minority. Remember, many are still bitter over the move and betrayal.

bucky

07-05-2011, 01:41 PM

Durbansandshark

24-05-2011, 11:23 AM

I have lived in Vancouver for nearly a year now and I truly beleive that an NBA team can do well here. Not because the people here like basketball, but because they're a bunch of bandwagon jumping shitbags.
Canucks fever is in the air here but I haven't spoken to a single "Canucks fan" who knows anything about this team outside of the twins, Kessler and the biggest peice of shit on the plantet Roberto Greasyhaired ass faced Luongo.
People here like the Canucks because they're from Vancouver. So I have no doubt that they would support a team and sport that they know nothing about (just like hockey) so long as it has the word Vancouver before the teams nickname.

Vancouver does have a LOT of hockey fans up there with hockey's existence there deeply rooted from the days of the sport's formative years like with the Vancouver Millionaires being the pro team there. It's Canada, after all. But there are plenty of casual ones out there too, who are jumping onto the Canucks' bandwagon because they are so successful in recent years and winning there. There hasn't been this much excitement in Vancouver since 1994 when Pavel Bure, Trevor Linden, and Kirk McLean were the stars. I like the Canucks (including Luongo) and pick them to win it all. Time to bring Stanley back to Canada! They're winning their Western Conference series against San Jose right now.

Back to the Grizzlies, a short video recently appeared on You Tube selling all the excitement of NBA ball to a then-virgin market that was Vancouver with NBA stars at the time like Penny, Derrick Coleman, Dominique Wilkins, Steve Smith, Tim Hardaway, Dan Majerle, and Harald Miner all playfully taunt Vancouver's entry and being ready for NBA basketball as a person or an actual grizzly going through the forest with some basketball references all over.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxtehLDRLsA

Seen some Vancouver Grizzlies snapback hats, some old dead stock and some reproductions, lately at hat stores! I'll wait for more models to hit stores.

Durbansandshark

01-07-2011, 08:42 AM

Did you know that Vancouver even had a taste of basketball decades ago? It was actually semi-pro as pro basketball was still building a foothold in the United States, to say nothing of Canada and the short-lived Toronto Huskies. It was the Vancouver Hornets in the Pacific Coast Professional Basketball League and fared better record-wise and the gate than the Nighthawks and Grizzlies (the former, not the later in the Grizzlies' case), even made the playoffs. Be decades later to say pro basketball return there when the dismal Nighthawks arrived for one season in 1988.
www.apbr.org/pcpbl.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_%22Porky%22_Andrews#Vancouver_Hornets

Durbansandshark

14-07-2011, 10:32 AM

One contributing factor that hasn't been mentioned much in the Vancouver demise of the NBA lockout lied in the 1999 lockout. As we know, Vancouver is not exactly a basketball hotbed and wasn't back then, as it is in the entire Western Canada. Whatever momentum and goodwill the Grizzlies earned up to that point with solid home fans' attendance got squandered with this. In such a virgin market with such a very sporadic history of pro basketball, it's tough to rebuild what was lost. As many fans were new to NBA basketball, Vancouver got disgusted with the ugly labor strife wiping out half of the season and started to turn away and rejected the league in protest. They again couldn't get out of last place at 8-42 that 1998-99 season.

I wonder did the Grizzlies players attempted to work out and practice on their own in an effort to build team chemistry during the workout?

Durbansandshark

25-08-2011, 12:06 PM

Western Canada, to say the least, when it comes to basketball, is not a hotbed for the sport. And this serves as another major factor why Vancouver didn't really hold onto the Grizzlies for even half a decade. If it was like Indiana, Kentucky, and North Carolina does to it at the grassroots, there would be a greater appreciation already in place. As I made note on previous posts on this thread, Vancouver's pro basketball history before and since the Grizzlies (and this is also true of pro basketball in Western Canada), even when it didn't actually play like in the case of the CBA's Grizzlies, has been sporadic at best and not very good nationally. While there has been some talent coming out of it, it hasn't been harnessed and developed to the point where the pro game of basketball there can be sustained instead of said talent heading elsewhere. One has to look at who won CIS men's basketball titles up to 1995 to understand what I'm talking about. By western Canada, I'm talking about British Columbia, Alberta, Saskatchewan, and Manitoba. Hockey is THE sport in Canada, and will continue to be so, especially out west, where there is a romanticizing of the sport weaved in its national identity.

Only 15 times up to 1995, the year of Vancouver's arrival, did the title went to universities that came from those provinces. These include the Alberta Golden Bears claiming back-to-back titles in 1994 and 1995. Before that, Brandon enjoyed a threepeat in the mid to late 80s. Victoria Vikings of course went on a celebrated 7-straight championship run starring the likes of legendary coach Ken Shields and star (and later Canadian national team member) Eli Pasquali that defined the 1980s CIS men's basketball. UBC Thunderbirds was the first from that region to win it in 1970 and again in 1972. The Thunderbirds have been a lengthy title drought ever since. You would think Victoria's dynasty would provide a much-needed boost to BC basketball and pave the way for the Grizzlies to deepen the basketball culture. If it did, it was fleeting. That was a good opportunity dropped in retrospect. Maybe was it because of the fact that a team from the lower tip of Vancouver Island at a ferry ride away from Vancouver was dominating much to the gnashing of the teeth to those in the Lower BC Mainland? It surely wasn't a Vancouver area school that was doing this.

To be sure, the coolness of the NBA global brand in the 1990s brought awareness to western Canada residents, a majority of which weren't hardcore basketball fans to begin with; it was also the glamour of seeing those freakish athletes in action. Being an NBA metropolis at the time brought its set of intangibles. It granted Vancouver further major league status in North America. Yeah, as Bucky says, there are a lot of bandwaggoners who were more than likely casual fans that were curious of that glitzy endeavour existing in their midsts. Still it was some solid exposure to the NBA. In its own way, the Canada West schools did contribute. But it's never like the level of AUS schools that helped cultivate the sport in Canada in a manner that was appreciated and people are passionate about in Atlantic Canada to this day, like tremendously successfully hosting for so many years in Halifax the men's CIS Final 8. Hosting and organizing the CIS Final 8 out west certainly would've helped grow the sport there. But where would it have played? Maybe Vancouver's Pacific Coliseum or nearby Agridome at the PNE, Saskatoon's Saskatchewan Place, Winnipeg Arena, Edmonton's Northlands Coliseum, or Calgary's Olympic Saddledome. Had all that happened, the Vancouver Grizzlies could've taken care of itself and developed a strong following across western Canada, regardless of how they fared on-court.

As far as the current pro basketball prospects in Vancouver are concerned, there's some hope in the coming years with the development of the National Basketball League Canada about to hit in November. Assuming if it has staying power by then, Western Canada's chances for teams will come no earlier than 2013. Time needs to made for prospective owners to negotiate with the arena management, local government officials, and basketball movers and shakers in those cities and provinces. Not to mention the fact the league seeks to cut down travel costs that brought down several domestic Canadian pro sports leagues over the years. Because of this, it would perhaps be prudent on those would-be owners' part and of the league's to have a cluster of NBL Canada teams based out in Western Canada. Here's hoping Vancouverites would rekindle their interest in pro basketball after the Grizzlies' somewhat bitter departure.

What if Vancouver held on and got the #1 pick in 2002 and selected Yao Ming?

TheBeers

06-09-2011, 11:11 PM

If Vancouver get an NBA team again, I'm moving there.

WhoIsMe

08-09-2011, 12:40 PM

It should work, it should have worked before

The Chinese (basketball's a yellow man's game) population there in Van is huge

I dunno, but basketball just agrees with Chinese people

The Toronto Raptors are around because Toronto's got a solid Chinese population

2sc945

11-09-2011, 07:27 PM

Durbansandshark

15-10-2011, 03:39 AM

George Lynch recently spoke about tasting the better food in Vancouver, minus the food preservatives used so much south of the border, and going constantly to Seattle to see family, despite not taking advantage of the city more becuase of his basketball duties (http://www.nba.com/sixers/stories/exclusive_interview_with_georg_2011_09_01.html). Locals in BC took exception at the time to his comment about going to Washington State to buy potato chips.

Cuonzo Martin is now the head coach of the Tennessee Volunteers, a program that going to have a hard season and likely the next. He's notable because of the fact Martin has the shorterst amount of time playing for Vancouver.

The last coach of the Vancouver Grizzlies, Sidney Lowe, is back in the NBA as one of Tyrone Corbin's assistant coaches for the Utah Jazz ( http://blogs.fayobserver.com/accbasketball/October-2011/Sidney-Lowe--Once-a-coach,-always-a-coach) after getting fired at his alma mater NC St. following a disappointing five-year run with two NIT appearances to his name and a above-.500 record.

Durbansandshark

04-11-2011, 11:08 AM

Finally it's here: this 1999 NBA Team Up PSA stars Vancouver Grizzlies star Bryant "Big Country" teaching local Vancouver kids basketball and having fun with it. This was after his massive contract and the lockout.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8uSA4Iai2U

On this day in NBA history in 1995, the Toronto Raptors and the Vancouver Grizzlies made their official debuts as being the first non-US based NBA franchises since the Toronto Huskies were a part of the original group of franchises in the NBA (then known as the Basketball Association of America). Vancouver started their first game out in the west coast, but not in Vancouver. It was in Portland and spoiling the official NBA opening of the Rose Garden with a stunning 92-80 victory over the Portland Trail Blazers. Benoit Benjamin had a team-high 29 points and 13 rebounds for Vancouver. Their next game was their home debut at the GM Place (now Rogers Arena) and won over the Minnesota Timberwolves with a Chris King tip-in at the buzzer 100-98 in overtime in front of 19,113 delirious pro-Grizzlies fans to go 2-0 to start the season. That, and the Raptors easily defeated the New Jersey Nets 94-79 in their NBA debut at the SkyDome (now Rogers Centre) filled with 33,000 fans. Both historic games were shown on CTV in Canada.

Sadly, it was all downhill from there for Vancouver.

Vancouver, of course being an expansion team, went on to lose the next 19 games before beating Portland again in OT to stop it (would've been stopped earlier if Vancouver held on and upset Chicago at home like Toronto did before MJ put on a show). And then, from February to April they lost 23 in a row, showing their typical expansion prowess once more. Before that dismal streak, they did held off the Miami Heat 69-65 at home. They finished with the league worst 15-67 while Toronto went 21-61 and had Damon Stoudemire became Rookie of the Year.

Oh, what could've been in the Canadian NBA derby. Don't forget the Naismith Cup the two battled over.

Durbansandshark

02-12-2011, 10:49 AM

Lately at my sports retail job, I noticed a small disturbing trend in some customers. It involves not just the Vancouver Grizzlies. It isn't the various styles of Vancouver Grizzlies snapback caps that a sizable amount of guys are wearing that come into my store--some styles are reproductions from way back when, others new like the script lettering one that Sports Specialties made famous from 1986-1994 (an all-time personal fave style of mine). Nor is it the retro cool appeal the Grizzlies (and other pro and college teams) have now. What is of issue of me here lies in the fact that many of these people who purchase these caps DO NOT KNOW A LICK ABOUT THE VANCOUVER GRIZZLIES. For the record, my store does not sell any Vancouver Grizzlies caps; all of the NBA caps we sell happened to be the Bulls, the Celtics, the Heat, and the NDCELE caps. I discussed this issue with one guy the other day at the store who happened to be wearing one of the reproduction Vancouver Grizzlies caps. We both came to an agreement that not many of these people know much about the franchise's time up there. Do they know about the notable players that played there, the coaches, the arena the Grizzlies played in, the uniforms, the history of that franchise, the owners, etc.? Have they ever heard of Shareef Abdur-Rahim, Mike Bibby, Bryant "Big Country" Reeves, Mike Dickerson, Benoit Benjamin, Ashraf Amaya, Greg Anthony, Otis Thorpe, Rich Manning, Gerald Wilkins, Anthony Daniels, Pete Chilcutt, Cherokee Parks, Lawrence Moten, Chris King, Othella Harrington, etc.? In a word, no.

A potent numbers of our customers are fashion-oriented and are looking something hip and cool and match what they are presently wearing--some guys are way too damn fashion conscious for their own good :angry:. Those snapback caps (not all of them are, though), I think, will become a fad like the retro jerseys that Mitchell & Ness jerseys were a decade ago. The teams with their previous logos do make money off of this, but a lot of these people aren't knowledgable or appreciative of them. Here's what funny: case in point, I observe these kind of customers saying, "Gimme the "P" hat! Gimme the "C" hat! Gimme the "T" hat!" and not know who those teams are that sport them (often in reference to MLB teams that multiple teams that begin with T, P, and C in different styles); their knowledge about sports, pro and college, is limited. So with Vancouver, it might as well be ancient history. In some of their defense, they were a little too young when Vancouver was playing. Even with ESPN being so ubiquitous in recent years, some can't instantly ID these teams unless it's a big one (like the aforementioned established NBA teams that is winning consistently and have superstars) or based in their hometown.

And that is such a shame. If you're wearing that stuff like a Vancouver Grizzlies cap, I sincerely hope that you take the time to explore more about these franchises and their logos beyond the the caps they wear. I know there ARE plenty of those who do. Don't get me wrong: I'm glad the Vancouver Grizzlies are getting a second chance of sorts (just not on court, though), and it's getting out there in terms of awareness. I don't expect people to know about defunct/minor teams and leagues. Though that would be impressive; in fact, that would have to be known to others. Yes, Mitchell & Ness still makes the retro jerseys. Because the fear that I have in this is how many who do sport them will discard them as they move on to something else for a fad. I think that's not just displays a disposability in our culture but also reveals a shallowness on their part.