Off-Season Transactions Discussion Thread

[alleyoop]

What are everyone's thoughts about the potential Shaq to Cleveland trade?

[j-mac]

Szczerbiak's deal already expired, I can't see Phoenix taking Wallace + Pavlovic/Gibson/Hickson (whatever combo) or Cavs giving up Mo or West, so unlikely IMO.
Unless of course there's some massive deal where Cleveland takes on Shaq and Richardson's HUGE contracts and gives away about 5 players.

[Voice(s)]

I think it would be a pretty good trade for both Shaq and the Cavs. The Suns not so much but then again if the aim of their game is to save money (which appears to be the case), I've read that if they bought out both Wallace & Pavlovic it would save them $10m.

The Cavs need to do something to try and keep LeBron in Cleveland and finally giving him a genuine quality second option could help that. The Cavs also appear close to a title, the current group won't be doing that and with Shaq they'd be championship favourites for next season. Really with the strangle-hold Nash has over the Suns, Shaq's just wasted seeing out next season there especially as they seem more intent on placating their fan base (run & gun, likely re-signing Nash to a ridiculous extension) & saving money rather than genuinely trying to get better.

[Clips]

I said this on another forum:

He averaged 18 and 8 last season so he isn't quite done yet, and going to the Cavs would see Shaq step into one of the easier divisions to be a post up centre in.

The other starting Centres in the Central division next season: Andrew Bogut (sorry Aussies), Roy Hibbert, Joahkim Noah, and whoever the Pistons manage to re-sign.

3 of the other 4 teams need a stronger post presence and are apparently actively searching for one. Most (all?) of these guys can't guard him straight up, but if they throw a double team at Shaq, you're either leaving Lebron with single coverage which will be buckets, or you double Lebron too and hope to hell they can't find one of the other open guys from the rotation.

[OKC Thunder]

Hawks shopping Josh Smith (http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2009/insider/news/story?page=09DraftBuzz&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fdraft2009%2finsider%2fnews%2fstory%3fpage%3d09D raftBuzz)

Cuban is named as one owner who would pay for him. Make some moves, Cuban!

[OKC Thunder]

Shaq to Cavs is official! (http://www.espn.com)

Also, Vinsanity to Magic in a trade that has the Magic the favourites in the East, with a line-up of:

Nelson
Vince Carter
Turkoglu (if successfully signed)
Lewis
Howard

[alleyoop]

That trade by Orlando is brilliant. Even if Turkoglu doesn't come back, I think it makes them stronger.

Not a bad move by the Spurs to grab RJ, too.

[DoubleA]

Joe Ingles cracks the Warriors summer league roster, Luke Nevill winds up at New Orleans and of course Patty in Portland.

[Clips]

Ben Gordon agrees on terms to $55M - 5 year deal, and Charlie V to a $35M - 5 year deal. Both to the Pistons.

Boozer agrees to another year in Utah.

After looking like picking up David Lee wth a $50M offer that the Knicks wouldn't match, that looks like old news at the moment. Memphis send Q to LAC for Randolph. The head pounding returns to LA!!

For Turkoglu, the Raptors were preparing an offer worth about $60M over 5 years, but are now apparently out of the running still. Blazers are apparent favorites.

The Blazers look like they will sign Brandon Roy to a max contract extension, but Aldridge will likely not receive max for his extension. Both of these negotiations are priority for Portland, but they are preparing an offer for Hedo for $50M - 5 years, which has pissed Rudy off.

With Rudy on $1.1M rookie contract, he will not be able to get paid when his extension time comes around, in 2 + 1 team option years time. He has reportedly had offers of $5M euros a year for 3 years from some Euro ball clubs. To be eligible, he would need to be released by Portland.

[stellation]

CV31 overpaid just a tad?

[Clips]

CV31 overpaid just a tad?
Yeah that's what I thought too. I thought the same about Ben Gordon too actually, especially if they are supposed to be chasing Boozer or Bosh next Summer...

[Da Houndawg #55]

Joe D's reign of "Awesome GM" reputation ends after Larry Brown blew out (when things started looking down again as per usual).

His best stuff was as Rick Carlisle was coming on board and Carlisle's plan to make the pieces fit...

[Voice(s)]

Dumars has lost his mind, Gordon and Villanueva? Yeah lots of luck!

[angry ant]

Lakers sign Artest.
Rockets sign Ariza.
Mavericks sign Gortat.

[Coachpete]

That's about the shittest swap I could think of. Losing Ariza and getting Artest. Good luck to him though. He certainly played a big part in winning it all this year

[RaMarQabLe]

i wish ariza stayed in LA :(

[Coachpete]

i wish ariza stayed in LA :(

Oh absolutely. I think he's going to be a superstar in a few years. The upside is that it means we more than likely hold on to LO. It was a shame they both were on the market at the same time
Will be a very, very difficult exercise to try and raise a cheer for Artest though

[RaMarQabLe]

im just annoyed i wont get to see what ariza is potential of now...

ariza under the guidence of kobe would of gone a lot further then what he'll accomplish now with knee-mac.

[DoubleA]

This is a translated version of a Spanish website's story of David Andersen possibly joining Atlanta this season

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.elmundodeportivo.es%2Fgen%2F200 90704%2F53738392519%2Fnoticia%2Fandersen-con-un-pie-en-la-nba.html&sl=es&tl=en&history_state0=

[Cussy]

Andersen is nothing but a singlet sucker anyway.

[alleyoop]

Turkoglu a bit overrated now it seems after being a key player for the Magic.

Sounds like Toronto has basically removed their flexibility to make any other moves with this acquisition and they weren't even in the ballpark last year. I don't think that move will be enough.

[angry ant]

Kind of off-topic, but does anyone know when League Pass will be available to buy for next season?

Also, for anyone that has it, is it worth it (how much does it cost)? Is there bust "buffering"?

I've also heard that you can only watch a low amount of games each month because it uses up all your downloads, is this true?

[meg]

Jason Kidd to the Knicks.

[DoubleA]

Jason Kidd to USE the Knicks AS LEVERAGE.

Thats correct.

[DoubleA]

Rasheed to Boston, from Ray Allen and Ric Bucher's twitter accounts.

[stellation]

Has anyone heard anything on a rumour of Dave Andersen finally having his rookie NBA season?

[DoubleA]

Nathan Jawai gets shipped to Dallas in the Shawn Marion trade, hopefully they don't cut him.

[alleyoop]

Portland signs Millsap to an offer sheet. Adds some pressure on the Jazz to deal Boozer, if in fact thats what they want to do.

[stellation]

Has anyone heard anything on a rumour of Dave Andersen finally having his rookie NBA season?
Well obviously the person who told me knows something! Houston traded for his draft rights from Atlanta today.

[Lethal Vertical]

Whats the record for most teams winning 60 games in a season?

Quite a few of the NBA's elite teams have just gotten better. There's 4 teams I can think of who should do it, so long as they remain reasonably healthy.

[j-mac]

Well obviously the person who told me knows something! Houston traded for his draft rights from Atlanta today.
Indeed. And they could do with a centre...

[Madcat]

Whats the record for most teams winning 60 games in a season?

Quite a few of the NBA's elite teams have just gotten better. There's 4 teams I can think of who should do it, so long as they remain reasonably healthy.Pct Record Team Season Postseason Results
0.878 72-10 Chicago Bulls 1995-96 Won NBA Championship
0.841 69-13 Los Angeles Lakers 1971-72 Won NBA Championship
0.841 69-13 Chicago Bulls 1996-97 Won NBA Championship
0.840 68-13 Philadelphia 76ers 1966-67 Won NBA Championship
0.829 68-14 Boston Celtics 1972-73 Lost Eastern Conference Finals
0.817 67-15 Boston Celtics 1985-86 Won NBA Championship
0.817 67-15 Chicago Bulls 1991-92 Won NBA Championship
0.817 67-15 Los Angeles Lakers 1999-20 Won NBA Championship
0.817 67-15 Dallas Mavericks 2006-07 Lost Western Conference 1st Round
0.817 49-11 Washington Capitols 1946-47 Lost Semi-Finals
0.805 66-16 Milwaukee Bucks 1970-71 Won NBA Championship
0.805 66-16 Boston Celtics 2007-08 Won NBA Championship
0.805 66-16 Cleveland Cavaliers 2008-09 Lost Eastern Conference Finals
0.797 51-13 Syracuse Nationals 1949-50 Lost NBA Finals
0.793 65-17 Philadelphia 76ers 1982-83 Won NBA Championship
0.793 65-17 Los Angeles Lakers 1986-87 Won NBA Championship
0.793 65-17 Los Angeles Lakers 2008-09 Won NBA Championship
0.787 59-16 Boston Celtics 1959-60 Won NBA Championship
0.780 64-18 Seattle SuperSonics 1995-96 Lost NBA Finals
0.780 64-18 Utah Jazz 1996-97 Lost NBA Finals
0.780 64-18 Detroit Pistons 2005-06 Lost Eastern Conference Finals
0.775 62-18 Boston Celtics 1964-65 Won NBA Championship
0.768 63-19 Milwaukee Bucks 1971-72 Lost Western Conference Finals
0.768 63-19 Boston Celtics 1981-82 Lost Eastern Conference Finals
0.768 63-19 Boston Celtics 1984-85 Lost NBA Finals
0.768 63-19 Detroit Pistons 1988-89 Won NBA Championship
0.768 63-19 Los Angeles Lakers 1989-90 Lost Western Conference Semi-Finals
0.768 63-19 Portland Trail Blazers 1990-91 Lost Western Conference Finals
0.768 63-19 Seattle SuperSonics 1993-94 Lost Western Conference 1st Round
0.768 63-19 San Antonio Spurs 2005-06 Lost Western Conference Semi-Finals
0.756 62-20 Philadelphia 76ers 1967-68 Lost Eastern Division Finals
0.756 62-20 Boston Celtics 1980-81 Won NBA Championship
0.756 62-20 Philadelphia 76ers 1980-81 Lost Eastern Conference Finals
0.756 62-20 Boston Celtics 1983-84 Won NBA Championship
0.756 62-20 Los Angeles Lakers 1984-85 Won NBA Championship
0.756 62-20 Los Angeles Lakers 1985-86 Lost Western Conference Finals
0.756 62-20 Los Angeles Lakers 1987-88 Won NBA Championship
0.756 62-20 Phoenix Suns 1992-93 Lost NBA Finals
0.756 62-20 San Antonio Spurs 1994-95 Lost Western Conference Finals
0.756 62-20 Chicago Bulls 1997-98 Won NBA Championship
0.756 62-20 Utah Jazz 1997-98 Lost NBA Finals
0.756 62-20 Phoenix Suns 2004-05 Lost Western Conference Finals
0.756 62-20 Boston Celtics 2008-09 Lost Eastern Conference Semifinals

[Lethal Vertical]

The Lakers have assembled what could end up being one of the best NBA teams ever. When was the last time a champion added someone as good as Artest? Crazy. Just when I thought the Spurs were ready to gear up for a title one more time ...

[Da Houndawg #55]

The Lakers have assembled what could end up being one of the best NBA teams ever. When was the last time a champion added someone as good as Artest? Crazy. Just when I thought the Spurs were ready to gear up for a title one more time ...
The Lakers got worse.

Ariza was a fit. Artest is a guy who eats a lot of ball to be effective.

Now they have Kobe who eats ball, Odom who's more effective with the ball, Pau needs some and Ron Artest pounding that ball in an ugly, yet somehow often effective (also sometimes horrible as we saw in the Playoffs this year) fashion.

Both teams just got worse. With Yao out Artest would have been a better fit for the Rockets. Ariza found his place in a team where Kobe's made that very difficult for a number of players over the years. That's rare and now they've found someone who can be effective with limited opportunities and they've effectively moved him on for Ron Artest.

[Lethal Vertical]

Odom will be very effective without the ball- regardless of whether he's actually better with or without. He's a solid passer and will be content accomodating another scorer in the lineup. Artest could potentially be more of a problem, but I'm predicting he'll be capable of taking a back seat behind Kobe and being content to contribute all over the floor- which he's no doubt capable of doing with his hussle. He'll provide that extra potent option on offense.

No one will really know till next June, but if they stay healthy I can't see anyone beating them, and for now, there's not much solid justification to argue that Artest makes them worse.

[Cussy]

At only 24, Trevor Ariza has plenty of good years left in the tank.

To the Lakers' fans. If you think your boys improved by swapping Trevor Ariza (a 24-year-old who came into his own this past spring, shot 45 percent from 3-point land, came through repeatedly in the clutch, turned into the NBA's single best defensive swingman and doesn't care about his numbers) for Ron Artest (an unreliable 29-year-old head case/attention hog who slipped noticeably as a perimeter defender these past two seasons and has a knack for taking terrible shots at the worst possible times), then absolutely, you're on drugs. I don't know what else to tell you. Your team is worse. I'm sorry. And that's before we get into the whole "Is Lamar Odom coming back?" and "Do you really want to commit to an aging Artest for FIVE years?" questions.

3. Some of the stuff that happens is good for a few people to know about, as opposed to, say ... a million people.

To Artest. Here's a classic case of someone hoodwinking the American public with a 10-year pattern of bizarre behavior that eventually immunized them to all future crazy Ron Artest stories and anecdotes, such as the fact that he's wearing No. 37 to honor Michael Jackson because it's the same number of weeks that "Thriller" led the charts (um, what?), or his recent revelation that he had been pining to play for the Lakers for two solid years. Artest told reporters that he wandered into the Lakers' locker room to express that desire to a showering Kobe Bryant -- right after L.A.'s bitter Game 6 thrashing in Boston in the 2008 Finals, no less -- adding, "Yeah, I walked in the shower. I'm not a homosexual or nothing like that, but Kobe had no clothes on."

These anecdotes just bounce off people now. Artest is a benevolent crazy. Or so we think. Being around this nuttiness every day is a little different from merely hearing about the nuttiness in secondhand anecdotes. I know for a fact he routinely broke plays on offense and is still a handful behind the scenes, and the Rockets buried every 2008-09 story that would have made this patently clear. For instance, Artest routinely walked around in his underwear in public places: the Rockets' team bus, hotels, you name it. People around the team barely flinched after a while. Before Game 7 of the Lakers series -- only the biggest game of the entire season -- they finally flinched.

Here's what happened: Artest missed the first two team buses (the ones for players, coaches and team personnel) from Houston's hotel to the Staples Center and barely made the third and final bus, which was reserved for business staff, sponsors and friends of the team. These stunned people watched Artest sprint to the bus right before it left, jump on and take one of the remaining seats ... yes, wearing only his underwear. Owner Leslie Alexander happened to be sitting on the bus and witnessed the whole thing. And you wonder why the Houston Rockets didn't make any effort whatsoever to bring back Artest.

Despite what Lakers fans might think, Ron Artest is not an upgrade over Ariza.(Note: If you want to make the "Kobe and Phil can keep him in check much like MJ and Phil kept Rodman in check" argument, just remember Rodman was still a world-class defender and rebounder when Chicago acquired him. Artest is neither. If anything, his athleticism is slipping and he can't defend quick small forwards anymore. So why even risk it? Wait, why am I complaining? Thank you for screwing up your title defense, Lakers!)


The guy is a cancer to every team he has played for.

[Da Houndawg #55]

Odom operates better with ball in hand creating for others...

Its why quite often the Lakers got better a few years ago when Kobe would go to the bench now and then, because Odom could play his natural game and the team became more balanced rather than Kobe eating ball and denying teammates.

He CAN play without the ball (now... after years of having to deal with it - and years of public criticism by Lakers fans) but that's his natural game.

Artest can stick that 3... but he WILL look to bang it in down low often, which the Lakers won't need with Pau and Bynum... just like the Rockets often didn't need with Yao down there.

[Da Houndawg #55]

These anecdotes just bounce off people now. Artest is a benevolent crazy. Or so we think. Being around this nuttiness every day is a little different from merely hearing about the nuttiness in secondhand anecdotes. I know for a fact he routinely broke plays on offense and is still a handful behind the scenes, and the Rockets buried every 2008-09 story that would have made this patently clear. For instance, Artest routinely walked around in his underwear in public places: the Rockets' team bus, hotels, you name it. People around the team barely flinched after a while. Before Game 7 of the Lakers series -- only the biggest game of the entire season -- they finally flinched.

You don't have to be Bill Simmons to know this...

You also don't need to be Bill Simmons to know that there'd have been far more happening behind the scenes at Houston than the Rockets would have let leak out...

[Coachpete]

As I previously stated, I'm certainly not a Lakers fan who thinks swapping Ariza for Artest was a good thing.

[Mad Mike]

The Magic's Rashard Lewis has been suspended for 10 games for a drug violation. Apparently took a supplement that contained a banned drug; the usual story. What is refreshing though is that he's squarely taken the blame for his own stupidity in not checking with an expert about taking a supplement.

[Da Houndawg #55]

To the contrary, I'm not a Lakers fan and I think it was the greatest thing to happen this month...

[Lethal Vertical]

Interesting Simmons piece, to be sure.

I was certainly thinking along the lines of a Rodman comparison, and I think Simmons, although he's more of an entertainer rather than a serious journalist, doesn't give Artest nearly enough credit in his article. That damages his argument quite a lot.

Still, as a Spurs fan, I really hope Artest does either implode mentally or struggle to live up to the on court expectations. Either scenario would be good, because with the Spurs adding McDyess and Jefferson, we're next best in the West.

[Da Houndawg #55]

I was certainly thinking along the lines of a Rodman comparison, and I think Simmons, although he's more of an entertainer rather than a serious journalist, doesn't give Artest nearly enough credit in his article. That damages his argument quite a lot.

Bullshit.

Other than my own personal preference that instead of saying:
If anything, his athleticism is slipping and he can't defend quick small forwards anymore.
He should instead say:
If anything, his athleticism is slipping and he already has trouble defending some of the quicker small forwards.

Its a petty thing to pick him on, but other than that the whole thing is spot on.

[Clips]

In related news, Ron Artest proves he is an idiot by posting his number on Twitter.

[gangsta boo]

In related news, Ron Artest proves he is an idiot by posting his number on Twitter.

for those that dont have it 8322608192

oh dear (tooshort)

[Lethal Vertical]

It's more the tone.

I agree that his central argument of Artest being a complete headcase is more or less proven if his anecdotes are true. But he goes to unnecessary rhetorical lengths to make his point, and so he ends up overextending an otherwise sound and cogent argument. Like, Artest is "aging". Well, he's 29. Ray Allen and Garnett were both into their 30's when they joined Boston, and they won a championship. Likewise for Shaq and Miami. The fact is, 29 isn't really "aging" in today's NBA, and Artest still looks to be somewhere near the top of his game. There's no reason to assume he'll slide into oblivion.

From the Lakers point of view it really depends on what their emphasis is. If they're looking more long term, then the points being made in favour of Ariza are obviously much more potent. But if you're looking more at the next year or two, the two overarching points in this whole debate surely have to be:

1. Artest is currently a better player than Ariza.
2. Phil Jackson has a history of managing difficult people and keeping his teams in check.

So as it stands, the Lakers have improved for this year because they've got the more talented player, who's proven himself as a quality, near NBA all star for years. And there's every reason to expect that Jackson can keep the team all on the same page. If Artest had gone to the Cavs instead as was another option, I'd be harking them as the team to beat.

[Coachpete]

It's more the tone.

I agree that his central argument of Artest being a complete headcase is more or less proven if his anecdotes are true. But he goes to unnecessary rhetorical lengths to make his point, and so he ends up overextending an otherwise sound and cogent argument. Like, Artest is "aging". Well, he's 29. Ray Allen and Garnett were both into their 30's when they joined Boston, and they won a championship. Likewise for Shaq and Miami. The fact is, 29 isn't really "aging" in today's NBA, and Artest still looks to be somewhere near the top of his game. There's no reason to assume he'll slide into oblivion.

From the Lakers point of view it really depends on what their emphasis is. If they're looking more long term, then the points being made in favour of Ariza are obviously much more potent. But if you're looking more at the next year or two, the two overarching points in this whole debate surely have to be:

1. Artest is currently a better player than Ariza.
2. Phil Jackson has a history of managing difficult people and keeping his teams in check.

So as it stands, the Lakers have improved for this year because they've got the more talented player, who's proven himself as a quality, near NBA all star for years. And there's every reason to expect that Jackson can keep the team all on the same page. If Artest had gone to the Cavs instead as was another option, I'd be harking them as the team to beat.

So you're saying for the next year or 2 it would be better to make a change than keep the lineup that won this year???? Interesting logic. I can't see any upside to losing Ariza and gaining Artest....next week or next decade

[Lethal Vertical]

And I should add, with the Lakers being the reigning champs and with their stars all being in the 28-30 age range, they should be looking at short term considerations over long term considerations and hence this adds more weight to the argument for Artest being the better selection.

[Coachpete]

And I should add, with the Lakers being the reigning champs and with their stars all being in the 28-30 age range, they should be looking at short term considerations over long term considerations and hence this adds more weight to the argument for Artest being the better selection.


If Ariza had wanted to stay at the Lakers for what they could afford to pay him then Artest wouldn't have been in the picture. Simple fact. It wasn't a case of "selection". Ariza took the money that was on offer and good luck to him

[Da Houndawg #55]

It's more the tone.

I agree that his central argument of Artest being a complete headcase is more or less proven if his anecdotes are true. But he goes to unnecessary rhetorical lengths to make his point, and so he ends up overextending an otherwise sound and cogent argument. Like, Artest is "aging". Well, he's 29. Ray Allen and Garnett were both into their 30's when they joined Boston, and they won a championship. Likewise for Shaq and Miami. The fact is, 29 isn't really "aging" in today's NBA, and Artest still looks to be somewhere near the top of his game. There's no reason to assume he'll slide into oblivion.

From the Lakers point of view it really depends on what their emphasis is. If they're looking more long term, then the points being made in favour of Ariza are obviously much more potent. But if you're looking more at the next year or two, the two overarching points in this whole debate surely have to be:

1. Artest is currently a better player than Ariza.
2. Phil Jackson has a history of managing difficult people and keeping his teams in check.

So as it stands, the Lakers have improved for this year because they've got the more talented player, who's proven himself as a quality, near NBA all star for years. And there's every reason to expect that Jackson can keep the team all on the same page. If Artest had gone to the Cavs instead as was another option, I'd be harking them as the team to beat.
Artest IS aging.

Not every player in the NBA "ages" at the same rate. His athleticism is going, its effecting his defence which is what he's most known for, and its also affecting his ability to get his shot off when pounding in down low.

[Lethal Vertical]

So you're saying for the next year or 2 it would be better to make a change than keep the lineup that won this year???? Interesting logic. I can't see any upside to losing Ariza and gaining Artest....next week or next decade

The upside is simple: Artest is a better player. And with Phil Jackson on the sidelines you've got every reason to be optimistic that he'll make it work with the most talented players (whereas, with an inexperienced coach, signing up a nutjob like Artest would be a much, much bigger risk factor).

All other serious contenders stayed roughly the same or got even better- Spurs,Celts, Cavs and Mavs have all added good players, and the Magic have lost a key player but added Carter.

In fact, also consider that the Celts and Spurs both had superstars on the sidelines in last years playoffs as well and would've both posed a serious threat to the Lakers had those guys been healthy.

So the elite teams have only gotten better, and if the Lakers want to win the title again they'll need to do better than last year. I think Artest gives them a better chance than Ariza. Ariza might've looked good in last year's playoffs but he' still largely unproven and you're still mostly banking on potential. Artest on the other hand, is a very good player already.

[Cussy]

If the point of Simmons ageing comment was to say that Artest is a year older then he simply would have said he is 29. His ageing comment meant that he has slowed down a hell of a lot in the past couple of years at both ends of the court. Niow, combine that with the second part of the sentence which mentions the 5 year contract, and his point about the signing being a backward step makes sense.

[Lethal Vertical]

His athleticism is going, its effecting his defence which is what he's most known for, and its also affecting his ability to get his shot off when pounding in down low.

Yeah point taken.

Even so, perhaps he can make up for it in other ways. For example have a look at his three point numbers from last year- they're easily the best of his career.

[Da Houndawg #55]

The upside is simple: Artest is a better player. And with Phil Jackson on the sidelines you've got every reason to be optimistic that he'll make it work with the most talented players (whereas, with an inexperienced coach, signing up a nutjob like Artest would be a much, much bigger risk factor).

All other serious contenders stayed roughly the same or got even better- Spurs,Celts, Cavs and Mavs have all added good players, and the Magic have lost a key player but added Carter.

In fact, also consider that the Celts and Spurs both had superstars on the sidelines in last years playoffs as well and would've both posed a serious threat to the Lakers had those guys been healthy.

So the elite teams have only gotten better, and if the Lakers want to win the title again they'll need to do better than last year. I think Artest gives them a better chance than Ariza. Ariza might've looked good in last year's playoffs but he' still largely unproven and you're still mostly banking on potential. Artest on the other hand, is a very good player already.
Artest is NOT a better player in the same role that Ariza plays though.

Its not banking on potential, its banking on a stable force who can actually play within the offence compared with a lunatic who breaks offence frequently for a team where there's already barely enough ball to go around.

[Lethal Vertical]

Someone refresh my memory- the Lakers offered Ariza a deal first, and he turned it down right?

[Da Houndawg #55]

Yeah point taken.

Even so, perhaps he can make up for it in other ways. For example have a look at his three point numbers from last year- they're easily the best of his career.
Nobody's doubting that he can shoot the three... He's been able to do that for years.

Its that he doesn't settle for just doing that, even when that's what would benefit his own team. Artest will do what Artest thinks is best, period.

[Lethal Vertical]

Sounds to me like you're underestimating the powers of Phil Jackson.

He managed to keep Rodman in check, and Rodman was just as much of a nutter as Artest. Arguably worse. Plus even Pippen was trouble at times- remember when he threw the chair or something in the mid 90's whilst Jordan was gone?

Plus look at all the feuds between Shaq and Kobe.

Based on history, you'd have to say that Jackson has the ability to get Artest to do what's best for the Lakers.

[Coachpete]

Artest is NOT a better player in the same role that Ariza plays though.

Its not banking on potential, its banking on a stable force who can actually play within the offence compared with a lunatic who breaks offence frequently for a team where there's already barely enough ball to go around.

Absolutely 100% correct summation. The fact that one player is on the way up and the other on the way down strengthens the argument even more

[Cussy]

Sounds to me like you're underestimating the powers of Phil Jackson.

He managed to keep Rodman in check,

No, Jack Haley kept Rodman in check.

and Rodman was just as much of a nutter as Artest. Arguably worse.

Yeah, Rodman's season long suspension was easily worse than Artest's.

Plus even Pippen was trouble at times- remember when he threw the chair or something in the mid 90's whilst Jordan was gone?

Like, wow!

Plus look at all the feuds between Shaq and Kobe.

The feud was at its worst the year that the Pistons trounced the Lakers in the Finals. Why didn't Jackson save them then?

[gangsta boo]

Phil Jackson is aging too. If given the choice would he want to put up with Artest? hmm maybe he wanted more showers with Kobe

[Da Houndawg #55]

Sounds to me like you're underestimating the powers of Phil Jackson.

He managed to keep Rodman in check, and Rodman was just as much of a nutter as Artest. Arguably worse. Plus even Pippen was trouble at times- remember when he threw the chair or something in the mid 90's whilst Jordan was gone?

Plus look at all the feuds between Shaq and Kobe.

Based on history, you'd have to say that Jackson has the ability to get Artest to do what's best for the Lakers.
Sounds to me like you're a f***ing idiot...

Rodman isn't the same as Artest. I actually love watching Artest play, but I won't deny that the guy is truly batshit crazy. Rodman was an attention-seeking "whack-job" who used the fact that he was crazy to intimidate.

Artest, meanwhile, is legitimately nuts.

And the fact that you're mentioning Pippen in this just makes it even more laughable that you think that you could claim that Simmons was going to "unnecessary rhetorical lengths" in his own article.

[Lethal Vertical]

TC, Artest has matured a little in the past 5 years, and he was very young when that happened. Plus that was a tough situation. He lost it in a flip second, with provocative fans absolutely egging him on- who knows what other people would've done in that same situation.

Rodman never seemed to mature- until he met Phil Jackson. Even in the mid 90's with the Spurs he was refusing to play in playoff games and having massive disputes with management.

Either way the point is Jackson should be able to calm Artest.

It doesn't make a good argument when you point out one of the few failings in Jackson's career. All it does really is highlight the rarity of the situation. And anyway, that wasn't Jackson's fault. Malone was too old to recover from his busted knee and he got owned by the Pistons frontcourt.

[Lethal Vertical]

Sounds to me like you're a f***ing idiot...

So you decide to ruin an enjoyable discussion by getting into the personal insults? Class act, you are. I pity you.


And the fact that you're mentioning Pippen in this just makes it even more laughable that you think that you could claim that Simmons was going to "unnecessary rhetorical lengths" in his own article.

Either way, my point is both clear and very valid- Jackson has the track record for keeping players with attitudes in check. I don't see any real reasons to believe that Artest will be the exception to that rule.

[Da Houndawg #55]

TC, Artest has matured a little in the past 5 years, and he was very young when that happened. Plus that was a tough situation. He lost it in a flip second, with provocative fans absolutely egging him on- who knows what other people would've done in that same situation.
Bullshit.

Artest's teams have been covering things up as much as they can and pulling the curtain over him for 5 years because they've given up on looking to control his personality, because its not possible.


Either way the point is Jackson should be able to calm Artest.
Based on what?

It doesn't make a good argument when you point out one of the few failings in Jackson's career. All it does really is highlight the rarity of the situation. And anyway, that wasn't Jackson's fault. Malone was too old to recover from his busted knee and he got owned by the Pistons frontcourt.
It doesn't look good when you point out a failure to control egos when it single-handedly derailed a team in the championships?

Malone had comparably little to do with the Lakers losing to the Pistons. A far bigger issue was Kobe refusing to dump it down to Shaq when he was killing it.

[Cussy]

It was during his tenure at the Bulls that Rodman head-butted an official, and kicked a cameraman in the groin. Those were the two incidents that he gained the most notoriety for. How does that look for Phil Jackson's track record?

[Cussy]

It doesn't make a good argument when you point out one of the few failings in Jackson's career. All it does really is highlight the rarity of the situation.

You're the one who is making statements about Phil's supposed super human ability to stop feuds and outlandish behaviour. I was just pointing out how wrong your example was.

[Da Houndawg #55]

So you decide to ruin an enjoyable discussion by getting into the personal insults? Class act, you are. I pity you.
I get into personal insults when you fall into your same old habits of stupidity and your penchant to forget things when they suit your argument.

You and Bouncer share the mantle of The Most Closed Minded, Ignorant Jackass(es) on this forum. By far, without a shadow of a doubt.


Either way, my point is both clear and very valid- Jackson has the track record for keeping players with attitudes in check. I don't see any real reasons to believe that Artest will be the exception to that rule.
Its not the attitude that is Artest's problem.

It's that he is literally batshit crazy.

He's not a Rodman. He's a Vernon Maxwell... times 25... to the 10th exponential...

[Da Houndawg #55]

It was during his tenure at the Bulls that Rodman head-butted an official, and kicked a cameraman in the groin. Those were the two incidents that he gained the most notoriety for. How does that look for Phil Jackson's track record?
Well since you are underrating Phil Jackson's superhuman ability to control players minds I think its quite obvious.

Phil Jackson wanted Rodman to head-butt the official and to kick the cameraman in the groin...

[Lethal Vertical]

It was during his tenure at the Bulls that Rodman head-butted an official, and kicked a cameraman in the groin. Those were the two incidents that he gained the most notoriety for. How does that look for Phil Jackson's track record?

That had nothing like the effect on his team that his management dispute with the Spurs (that caused him to miss a month or two) did, I'm sure.

I get into personal insults when you fall into your same old habits of stupidity and your penchant to forget things when they suit your argument.

You and Bouncer share the mantle of The Most Closed Minded, Ignorant Jackass(es) on this forum. By far, without a shadow of a doubt.

And you're one of the rudest, most classless people I've seen in any online environment.

If your criticism of me is true, at least I can learn to be less closed minded and listen to other people's arguments better. As for you, you're probably a lost cause. When people classlessly throw around obscenities at people they've never met, it indicates someone of a poor character.

[Cussy]

That had nothing like the effect on his team that his management dispute with the Spurs (that caused him to miss a month or two) did, I'm sure.

Nice backflip. You were the one who said that Rodman was more of a nutter, and then said that Jackson could keep him under control. I have just shown two deplorable incidents that occured under Jackson's "control" and now you want to make it about contract issues.

[Cussy]

If your criticism of me is true, at least I can learn to be less closed minded and listen to other people's arguments better. As for you, you're probably a lost cause. When people classlessly throw around obscenities at people they've never met, it indicates someone of a poor character.

You don't deserve any better than insults. You simply refuse to listen to other people's arguments, as evidenced in...hmmm, every single discussion you have. You selectively edit whatever you like and then try and get all high and mighty, as if you don't have to listen to other people.

The best way for you to stop people calling you a dickhead is to stop acting like one.

[Clips]

And you're one of the rudest, most classless people I've seen in any online environment.

If your criticism of me is true, at least I can learn to be less closed minded and listen to other people's arguments better. As for you, you're probably a lost cause. When people classlessly throw around obscenities at people they've never met, it indicates someone of a poor character.Do you not notice a common trend here? Hound is far from the only one who has called you a dickhead for the reasons he has mentioned above. You back track on your arguments, you take opposing reason completely out of context and you do every single time, which is why any discussion ends up turning into flaming after about 10 pages of your flip flopping. I think its more than fair to say the majority here feel this way, and that other tigers fans are embarrassed by you frequently, yet you either don't seem to realise, or you just don't care that you are so blatantly one eyed.
This is why so often, you just end up being branded an ignorant ****.

[Lethal Vertical]

Nice backflip. You were the one who said that Rodman was more of a nutter, and then said that Jackson could keep him under control. I have just shown two deplorable incidents that occured under Jackson's "control" and now you want to make it about contract issues.

Whether or not Artest is more crazy than Rodman isn't vital to my overall argument.

Perhaps Artest is more of a nutter, but even so, I don't see why anyone would doubt Jackson's ability to keep him in check and keep him buying into the team concept.

[Cussy]

Whether or not Artest is more crazy than Rodman isn't vital to my overall argument.

Perhaps Artest is more of a nutter, but even so, I don't see why anyone would doubt Jackson's ability to keep him in check and keep him buying into the team concept.

Because all the evidence you pointed to as to why Jackson can keep him under control has been shown to be utter crap. It was your point in the first place - it was up to you to show something to back it up. That is probably more vital to your overall argument but you failed.

[Lethal Vertical]

Do you not notice a common trend here?

Yes, you are right- There's a handful of Ozhoopers who buy into the same myths as each other about me, but why should I care? I frequent at least one other online forum, and no one makes similar accusations towards me, and the same is true of real life (and of course, that's a far better indicator). So because of that, it leads me to believe that Hound (and the other few) are just rude pricks who are incapable of playing nicely.

[Lethal Vertical]

Because all the evidence you pointed to as to why Jackson can keep him under control has been shown to be utter crap. It was your point in the first place - it was up to you to show something to back it up. That is probably more vital to your overall argument but you failed.

Rodman is surely evidence.

Yes, he might've kicked a cameraman but before he joined the Bulls he was all about Rodman, and basketball seemed to come second. He refused to play for a couple of months over a dispute with management. He sat out part of the playoffs etc.

It was considered a risk that the Bulls were signing him- just like you're now claiming about Artest. But after he joined the Bulls, he was still an eccentric individual, but basketball came first. Jackson got him buying into the team concept, and as a result he played his role with less fuss, put the team first and won a few championships.

Kobe and Shaq are also evidence, considering all the whisperings about major bickering between those two. If they really hated each other so much, how on earth did they win three championships and play so well together? Maybe the coach had something to do with it, you think?

[Cussy]

Yes, you are right- There's a handful of Ozhoopers who buy into the same myths as each other about me, but why should I care? I frequent at least one other online forum, and no one makes similar accusations towards me, and the same is true of real life (and of course, that's a far better indicator). So because of that, it leads me to believe that Hound (and the other few) are just rude pricks who are incapable of playing nicely.

In summary, you act like a fuckstick here because you feel safe but in real life you haven't got the balls to be a mouthy **** because you know you'd get punched.

[Clips]

Only a handful? Thats some fucking huge hands he has...

[Lethal Vertical]

I'm not a "mouthy ****" on here at all. I rarely stoop to the lowly levels I'd have to fall to, in order to match the insults thrown at me. I have no need to.

Generally people who resort to unnecessary and obscene insults over the internet are either just people with inherently poor character (as I said before) or they're normal people who have some insecurity or inferiority issue IRL and use online-bashing of others as some kind of bizarre therapy to help them feel better about themselves. I am neither, so I generally don't feel the desire to bite back at the senseless crap, such as Hound's piss poor effort earlier in this topic.

[Cussy]

Rodman is surely evidence.

Yes, he might've kicked a cameraman but before he joined the Bulls he was all about Rodman, and basketball seemed to come second. He refused to play for a couple of months over a dispute with management. He sat out part of the playoffs etc.

I guess you typing "and headbutted a ref" would have made your argument look silly, so you left that out. No suprise.

He missed a total of 19 regular season games with the Spurs. Which "part of the playoffs" did he sit out? The 94 season, where the Spurs got knocked out in the first round, or during the 95 season, where the Spurs made it to the WC Finals? He SAT DOWN on the court, but I don't know that he SAT OUT.

It was considered a risk that the Bulls were signing him- just like you're now claiming about Artest. But after he joined the Bulls, he was still an eccentric individual, but basketball came first. Jackson got him buying into the team concept, and as a result he played his role with less fuss, put the team first and won a few championships.

As Rodman did not tone down his reckless behaviour, you cannot claim that Jackson helped Rodman turn a corner.

Kobe and Shaq are also evidence, considering all the whisperings about major bickering between those two. If they really hated each other so much, how on earth did they win three championships and play so well together? Maybe the coach had something to do with it, you think?

The feud escalated AFTER they won 3 rings. Once the feud became public, they got knocked out of the playoffs one year, and then got beaten in the Finals the next. In that Finals series, Jackson couldn't even get his star guard to pass the ball to the big man.

Do your research.

[Cussy]

I'm not a "mouthy ****" on here at all. I rarely stoop to the lowly levels I'd have to fall to, in order to match the insults thrown at me. I have no need to.

Generally people who resort to unnecessary and obscene insults over the internet are either just people with inherently poor character (as I said before) or they're normal people who have some insecurity or inferiority issue IRL and use online-bashing of others as some kind of bizarre therapy to help them feel better about themselves. I am neither, so I generally don't feel the desire to bite back at the senseless crap, such as Hound's piss poor effort earlier in this topic.

And as I keep telling you, you don't deserve to have anything but insults thrown at you. You talk crap, you don't respond to what people say, and then you repeat your same initial points that have been refuted, as if your last word is really crucial. You behave like a dickhead, you get called a dickhead.

I don't know about you, that's how things work in real life too. It's certainly not an insecurity thing - it's that some people can see through the crap in an instant.

[T-Rich]

FYI Lethal, Ron is bipolar. The way to manage his disorder is through medication, not via "Zen-like" coaching strategies. Unfortunately, it is well known (especially among Pacer fans) that Ron goes through stretches where he doesn't take the medication... then the problems start. Good luck Laker fans - you'll need it.

[mattic]

In summary, you act like a fuckstick here because you feel safe but in real life you haven't got the balls to be a mouthy **** because you know you'd get punched.

Because my understanding of the NBA is less that my understanding of basketball in Australia, this is the first post in this thread I've understood.

[Da Houndawg #55]

If your criticism of me is true, at least I can learn to be less closed minded and listen to other people's arguments better. As for you, you're probably a lost cause. When people classlessly throw around obscenities at people they've never met, it indicates someone of a poor character.
Can you just..?

Well if you could hurry the fuck up with it it'd be greatly appreciated. Because due to the complete lack of fucking progress on your end (which seems to be limited to learning the words strawman, tu quoque and ad hominem and bumbling when it comes to their usage... amongst other things) I'm beginning to seriously doubt that.

Even more to the point, you and Bouncer make me question my faith in humanity... because how any progress can occur with such masters of self deception, like the pair of you, who WILL form a conclusion based on dodgy logic and then cling to it and lie to themselves, others and ignore all rational argument to the contrary... well, its beyond me.

[Da Houndawg #55]

I'm not a "mouthy ****" on here at all. I rarely stoop to the lowly levels I'd have to fall to, in order to match the insults thrown at me. I have no need to.

Generally people who resort to unnecessary and obscene insults over the internet are either just people with inherently poor character (as I said before) or they're normal people who have some insecurity or inferiority issue IRL and use online-bashing of others as some kind of bizarre therapy to help them feel better about themselves. I am neither, so I generally don't feel the desire to bite back at the senseless crap, such as Hound's piss poor effort earlier in this topic.
You left off the third option... which is "they're normal people pushed to the limit by people acting like a f***ing idiot. Who therefore should be informed of the fact that they're acting like a f***ing idiot."

At this point I would like to apologise for all of the times I slipped and fell into a sea of obscenity in arguments against people like Mattic, Stumps, Wallitron, Teh Glove, The Customer, rjd...

[Lethal Vertical]

He missed a total of 19 regular season games with the Spurs. Which "part of the playoffs" did he sit out? The 94 season, where the Spurs got knocked out in the first round, or during the 95 season, where the Spurs made it to the WC Finals? He SAT DOWN on the court, but I don't know that he SAT OUT.

I stand corrected- sat down during a game rather than sat out of a game.



As Rodman did not tone down his reckless behaviour, you cannot claim that Jackson helped Rodman turn a corner.

Agreed- you've shown this beyond almost any doubt now. Rodman was still the crazy he always was.



The feud escalated AFTER they won 3 rings. Once the feud became public, they got knocked out of the playoffs one year, and then got beaten in the Finals the next. In that Finals series, Jackson couldn't even get his star guard to pass the ball to the big man.

Do your research.

I have done my research, and it turns out I was right about this one. If the fued became public so late, then how do you explain this quote from Phil Jackson in March 2001?

"I've had two dozen psychologists, mediators, counselors, Scientologists, you name it, approach me on trying to heal the rifts, the schism, between these two," Jackson said Saturday. "It's interesting the approaches they all take.

And more quotes from the same article: http://articles.latimes.com/2001/mar/04/sports/sp-33380

So you were wrong- the fued was obviously public long before the Lakers lost that finals series, because Jackson was talking about it with the media over 3 years before. It may have "escalated later" but it was clearly there all along, so some third party must deserve credit for helping keep it from boiling over for so long. We could speculate at who, but in such discussions Jackson would surely have to be the leading candidate.

So, in summary: My evidence for Jackson's powers of people management wasn't as good as I'd originally thought, although there is certainly some evidence. Perhaps his reputation is more media hype than actual reality.

I might add, and this is not intended as a backpedal from my last argument- it's a separate thought on Jackson and Artest- Jackson's awesome record as one of the coaching greats bodes well for an expectation that he'll reign in Artest and get this talented mob playing well together, regardless of any perception of him being a people manager or any evidence for him being such. As a Spurs fan, it's the only matchup I truly dread for the upcoming season, because the Lakers look a cut above every other lineup in the league. As always, time will tell.

You talk crap, you don't respond to what people say, and then you repeat your same initial points that have been refuted, as if your last word is really crucial.

The regularity and consistency with which you repeat this accusation is simply not matched by corresponding evidence of me actually doing what you claim.

If you provide the evidence first and then make the claim you'll have ample justification for your statement. Until you do, it's an empty and baseless assertion.

[Lethal Vertical]

You left off the third option... which is "they're normal people pushed to the limit by people acting like a f***ing idiot. Who therefore should be informed of the fact that they're acting like a f***ing idiot."

Normal people would rarely feel the need to inform others of this "fact" that they have perceived.


At this point I would like to apologise for all of the times I slipped and fell into a sea of obscenity in arguments against people like Mattic, Stumps, Wallitron, Teh Glove, The Customer, rjd...

I never claimed such people throw obscenities at everyone. That would be absurd. But the mere existence of a need to do so at all is what raises the initial questions.

[Cussy]

I have done my research, and it turns out I was right about this one. If the fued became public so late, then how do you explain this quote from Phil Jackson in March 2001?



And more quotes from the same article: http://articles.latimes.com/2001/mar/04/sports/sp-33380

My apologies, by "public", I meant the slanging match in the media that the two of them insisted on.

So you were wrong

No I wasn't.

the fued was obviously public long before the Lakers lost that finals series, because Jackson was talking about it with the media over 3 years before. It may have "escalated later" but it was clearly there all along, so some third party must deserve credit for helping keep it from boiling over for so long. We could speculate at who, but in such discussions Jackson would surely have to be the leading candidate.

Really? Based on what? Him turning Rodman in to a saint?

So, in summary: My evidence for Jackson's powers of people management wasn't as good as I'd originally thought, although there is certainly some evidence.

Actually, you have given no evidence. There is no evidence whatsoever that Phil Jackson has been the glue that has held any dysfunctional duo (or team) together.

The regularity and consistency with which you repeat this accusation is simply not matched by corresponding evidence of me actually doing what you claim.

If you provide the evidence first and then make the claim you'll have ample justification for your statement. Until you do, it's an empty and baseless assertion.

I don't need to provide any evidence. I could do a quick survey amongst the people in this thread, I could ask the regulars here to describe you, or I could ask someone like Stumps to repeat the summary of your posting habits that he wrote. They will all point to the same thing, and that is the description I gave earlier.

[Coachpete]

feud feud feud feud

[alleyoop]

Ben Wallace back with the Pistons.

[Da Houndawg #55]

To the normally calm and clean-mouthed person who sent me a PM:

Yes, you're right.

I shouldn't have bothered.

He is indeed a fucktard.

[Lethal Vertical]

There is no evidence whatsoever that Phil Jackson has been the glue that has held any dysfunctional duo (or team) together.




So let me get this straight: Jackson coached a team with two big name superstars, who both have massive ego's and who were feuding with each other for years. In that time period while they were fueding, Jackson coached the team to incredible success over a number of years. Yet, this is not positive evidence for Jackson's people management skills? You've gotta be kidding. With that situation, the obvious conclusion is that it says something positive of the coach's player management skills.

I'm not arguing that it means Jackson is some super guru who could get Osama and George Bush playing on the same team, but the fact that the team continued to achieve great success for years after they were fueding definitely speaks positively of him, no doubt.

Plus as I pointed out in the last post, the mere fact that Jackson has been the most successful NBA coach ever (by winning percentage) should give Lakers fans optimism that he can get Artest playing well within the team.

[Cussy]

In a recent wide-ranging interview with Scott Howard-Cooper of the Sacramento Bee, Shaquille O'Neal reflected on his tumultuous partnership with Kobe Bryant in Los Angeles. Shaq credited coach Phil Jackson with promoting the feud between the two superstars, who won three championships together before the Diesel was traded to Miami in 2004:

Question: Could you and Kobe ever have existed together or did you have to go your separate ways?

Answer: Yeah, we could have. We never had a problem. We never had a problem. I swear to God. On the court, we never had a problem.

Q: Don't even say that. Don't even try.

A: It's just that I'd say stuff, he'd say stuff. I think it was all designed by Phil (Jackson). Because if you think about it, Phil never called us into the office and said, ''Both of you all, shut the (heck) up.'' Never did that in four years. He knew that when I read something, I was going to get upset. And he knew Kobe was going to always come out and play hard. So I think it was all done by design.

Q: You think he just wanted to light a fire under you guys?

A: Yeah. I think that's exactly what it was. I think it was all done by design. Really. He never called us in a meeting and said, ''Shut up.'' And basically, it was never a face-to-face... thing. It was always, he'd say something to you, I'd say something to another guy, I'd say something to you. That's all it was.

Positives. Speaks it.

I'd actually say that there is more evidence of Ron Harper being the professional team player that would keep attitudes in check.

[alleyoop]

Kurt Rambis is Minny's new coach.

[Lethal Vertical]

So what does this come down to? Who to believe- Shaq or Phil Jackson? I'll take Phil, lol!

[Lethal Vertical]

Just heard about the Ratliff signing- That's huge. I'd been thinking our front line was looking a little thin, but now we've got serious depth with Duncan, McDyess, Bonner and Ratliff.

[Cussy]

So what does this come down to? Who to believe- Shaq or Phil Jackson? I'll take Phil, lol!

I'll take Harper.

[Da Houndawg #55]

Positives. Speaks it.

I'd actually say that there is more evidence of Ron Harper being the professional team player that would keep attitudes in check.
And Jordan being in the equation at the Bulls...

Mike terrified people to the extent that they either had to play straight and hard or they'd fold and become weak soppy piles of nothingness... there was never any question of which side Rodman would fall alongside of an influence like that.

Artest is a different kettle of fish entirely because he's legitimately nuts. Rodman was merely an attention seeker.

[Wallitron]

I think the Lakers have to take that gamble. If they don't change the roster they don't win next year, so what have they got to lose from the Artest experiment?

Even if it does pan out, I still see this thing wide open. The odds of the winner being either Boston, Cleveland or Orlando are currently 48%, which I think is understated.

[Coachpete]

[QUOTE=Wallitron;179056] If they don't change the roster they don't win next year, /QUOTE]

Why? And as I said before it's not really like it's something they did by choice. It's only come about because Ariza took the option of earning more elsewhere

[Lethal Vertical]

Wallitron's right- with the same lineup as last year, they'd struggle to beat the Spurs and Celtics this year. And the Mavs, Cavs and Magic would be hot on their heels. After signing Artest, I rate them above all of those teams, although the Spurs signing of Ratliff adds much needed depth to their frontcourt and hence closes the gap a little bit.

[Da Houndawg #55]

Ratliff has been next to done for years...

[Wallitron]

Well, Cleveland will be better. Orlando at least as good, Boston will be better than last year, and I'd rate their team two years ago better than last years Lakers.

The Spurs will be better than last year, and a threat if everyone is fit. At least one other team in the West will step up and have a stand out season.

If you aren't sure if Odem is returning, and you have to replace Ariza with someone better if possible, who better was available?

[Lethal Vertical]

One major advantage the Lakers do have over those other teams is that all their best players are between 28-31, whereas the others all have some key players who are getting into their mid 30's. The inevitable decline in ability and increased risk of injury are factors that come with age, so those risks are greater for the Spurs, Celtics and Mavs.

We already saw it last year, I reckon the Celtics would've made at least the conference finals and maybe even the finals if fit, and the Spurs were the same, except Garnett and Ginobili got hurt.

[Lethal Vertical]

Actually you could probably take the Mavs off that list. It's mainly the Spurs and Celtics, both of those teams are getting seriously old.

[Da Houndawg #55]

One major advantage the Lakers do have over those other teams is that all their best players are between 28-31, whereas the others all have some key players who are getting into their mid 30's. The inevitable decline in ability and increased risk of injury are factors that come with age, so those risks are greater for the Spurs, Celtics and Mavs.

We already saw it last year, I reckon the Celtics would've made at least the conference finals and maybe even the finals if fit, and the Spurs were the same, except Garnett and Ginobili got hurt.
I don't think so.

I think despite Ginobili's injury the best bet to knock the Lakers out was always going to be the winner of the Rockets/Blazers first round match-up. They match-up against the Lakers the best.

The Celts would have been a threat too though if Garnett got healthy and they could have made it there, but they weren't as good as the previous year regardless... and wouldn't have as much upside either with Posey not in the squad.

[Lethal Vertical]

Yeah Posey was that all important pinch hitter, he was absolutely crucial in the 2008 finals. Without him, they lack that extra guy to make the big shots. Thats why I always thought the Lakers would probably get them last year. But if Garnett had been fit I would've backed them to beat the Magic in that series...(it took 7 anyway didn't it? tight series I remember) and then go on to defeat the Cavs.

[Lethal Vertical]

Although on the Celtics, Rondo's improvement makes them that bit more dangerous. He's proven he can step up and have massive games. Looking forward to the East battles this year.

[Da Houndawg #55]

If you aren't sure if Odem is returning, and you have to replace Ariza with someone better if possible, who better was available?
Every single small forward free agent option.

Marion would have cost too much, but after that try just about anyone who was a free agent.

Jamario Moon immediately springs to my mind...

Linus Kleiza. In fact Kleiza would have been ideal...

Hedo Turkoglu.

Perhaps Joey Graham...

Artest would have been the last guy I'd have thought of...

[Lethal Vertical]

Turkoglu signed a 5 year deal for $50 or $60mil US, could the Lakers have even afforded that? When you compare Artest to guys getting paid much more, it's apples and oranges.

According to KB on that internet show, he could've signed for much more elsewhere but he went to the Lakers cos he wanted a championship. So it sounds like they got him at a bargain ($8 mil a year wasn't it?).

[Da Houndawg #55]

Every option I pointed out would be a better PLAYING fit and you picked out the single option with logistics issues.

Artest could have got more elsewhere and the Lakers could have got a guy with far less issues...

[Lethal Vertical]

It remains to be seen how much of an "issue" those issues really are.

One other thing KB said on the latest show is that Odom and Artest are really good mates who go way back, so that might help things out a bit.

Odom seems a reasonably level headed guy, and he's been with the Lakers for 5 years so maybe he'll step up and help Artest settle in.

[Da Houndawg #55]

It remains to be seen how much of an "issue" those issues really are.

One other thing KB said on the latest show is that Odom and Artest are really good mates who go way back, so that might help things out a bit.

Odom seems a reasonably level headed guy, and he's been with the Lakers for 5 years so maybe he'll step up and help Artest settle in.
Artest is out of his gourd...

"Help him settle in"... for fucks sake...

[Lethal Vertical]

gourd?

Help him settle in=ie: Keep him on the straight and narrow, help keep him from going off the rails and doing stupid stuff, help him keep his head on basketball rather than being a crazy fool.

[AngusH]

If I were a Laker fan I wouldn't be concerned with his off-court stuff, I'd be concerned with Artest on the court. The guy pounds the ball and takes horrible jumpers, and his D isn't nearly where it once was. I don't see him as a good fit at all, keeping Ariza would have been the far better option.

[gangsta boo]

Shouldn't Odom just be focusing on basketball stuff not caring for a crazy friend?

[Lethal Vertical]

People keep talking about how Artest's defense isn't where it once was, and how he's declining.

He made the all Defensive second team last year, so if by "decline" you mean "No longer a serious contender for Defensive player of the year, but still one of the 10 best defenders in the league" then yeah, you're right....

[Clips]

Shouldn't Odom just be focusing on basketball stuff not caring for a crazy friend?He can barely even do that. His inconsistant play has been put down to the high sugars levels he takes in thanks to his admitted sweet tooth.

[Lethal Vertical]

What is this- Lakers bashing day/week?

It does make sense I guess, they did win the championship recently. Good ole Aussie tall poppy syndrome. And they did get Pao Gasol in a bit of a steal.

Heck, I'm the Spurs fan, I should hate them more than all you guys!

[Wallitron]

gourd?

Help him settle in=ie: Keep him on the straight and narrow, help keep him from going off the rails and doing stupid stuff, help him keep his head on basketball rather than being a crazy fool.


Don't drive angry. Be sure to check your mirrors, corner of your eye, corner of your eye.

[AngusH]

People keep talking about how Artest's defense isn't where it once was, and how he's declining.

He made the all Defensive second team last year, so if by "decline" you mean "No longer a serious contender for Defensive player of the year, but still one of the 10 best defenders in the league" then yeah, you're right....

Well, for starters, I don't place much stock in who makes All-Defensive teams. Guys who get lots of steals and block lots of shots, for example, often aren't very good on-ball defenders.

Artest makes it on reputation. For some reason people still consider him an outstanding defender. He used to be one of the best, sure, but I want you to honestly tell me that watching him in a Rockets uniform last season you thought he was one of the best defenders in the NBA.

Regardless, even if I grant you that Artest is one of the best defenders in the NBA (which I won't, but anyway ;) ), he is an amazingly inefficent offensive player. He'll pass up open jumpers only to drive in to traffic and launch up a contested one, all after chewing up a large percentage of the shot clock. He's not a good spot up shooter, which is probably what he'll need to be in LA.

Lakers are still the most talented team in the NBA and should be the favourite next season, but trading Artest for Ariza has made them worse.

[AngusH]

What is this- Lakers bashing day/week?

It does make sense I guess, they did win the championship recently. Good ole Aussie tall poppy syndrome. And they did get Pao Gasol in a bit of a steal.

Heck, I'm the Spurs fan, I should hate them more than all you guys!

Spurs look a lot better this year, but I don't think it'll be enough to get them another ring. You guys got a steal in Blair though.

[Da Houndawg #55]

Well, for starters, I don't place much stock in who makes All-Defensive teams. Guys who get lots of steals and block lots of shots, for example, often aren't very good on-ball defenders.

Artest makes it on reputation. For some reason people still consider him an outstanding defender. He used to be one of the best, sure, but I want you to honestly tell me that watching him in a Rockets uniform last season you thought he was one of the best defenders in the NBA.

Regardless, even if I grant you that Artest is one of the best defenders in the NBA (which I won't, but anyway ;) ), he is an amazingly inefficent offensive player. He'll pass up open jumpers only to drive in to traffic and launch up a contested one, all after chewing up a large percentage of the shot clock. He's not a good spot up shooter, which is probably what he'll need to be in LA.

Lakers are still the most talented team in the NBA and should be the favourite next season, but trading Artest for Ariza has made them worse.
Exactly. And said by someone with more patience than me.

Artest wasn't even the best defender on the Rockets last year. All-Defensive Teams get selected by lazy folk who generally go by reputation. Its why Kobe's made so many undeservedly.

[Cussy]

Lethal Vertical was nominated for the All-Defensive Turd Team because he spent most of last year defending himself on all the crap he speaks.

[Lethal Vertical]

Angus, I just meant in terms of the rivalry, since Spurs and Lakers go way back. We're definitely in the hunt, one of the 4-6 serious contenders. Health is the key since we've got a lot of guys in the rotation who are in their 30's, and Parker and Ginobili both got injured recently.

So Hound and Angus, if the defensive teams are picked on reputation then how did Rondo get voted in? If it was based on reputation, you'd wouldn't see guys making it in their 3rd season.

[The Glove]

Go the Sonics in 2010

[Cussy]

The Cavs would have to be the early favourites now that they have sign Powe.

[Lethal Vertical]

The good teams just keep getting better. Davis re-signs for Boston and now this.

I wonder what the records are for most 60 win teams or 65 win teams in a single season? Could easily get broken. Can't remember a season with this many teams who look really elite.

[Hoffa]

I wonder what the records are for most 60 win teams or 65 win teams in a single season?

You already asked that.....

Whats the record for most teams winning 60 games in a season?

And Madcat answered.....

Pct Record Team Season Postseason Results
0.878 72-10 Chicago Bulls 1995-96 Won NBA Championship
0.841 69-13 Los Angeles Lakers 1971-72 Won NBA Championship
0.841 69-13 Chicago Bulls 1996-97 Won NBA Championship
0.840 68-13 Philadelphia 76ers 1966-67 Won NBA Championship
0.829 68-14 Boston Celtics 1972-73 Lost Eastern Conference Finals
0.817 67-15 Boston Celtics 1985-86 Won NBA Championship
0.817 67-15 Chicago Bulls 1991-92 Won NBA Championship
0.817 67-15 Los Angeles Lakers 1999-20 Won NBA Championship
0.817 67-15 Dallas Mavericks 2006-07 Lost Western Conference 1st Round
0.817 49-11 Washington Capitols 1946-47 Lost Semi-Finals
0.805 66-16 Milwaukee Bucks 1970-71 Won NBA Championship
0.805 66-16 Boston Celtics 2007-08 Won NBA Championship
0.805 66-16 Cleveland Cavaliers 2008-09 Lost Eastern Conference Finals
0.797 51-13 Syracuse Nationals 1949-50 Lost NBA Finals
0.793 65-17 Philadelphia 76ers 1982-83 Won NBA Championship
0.793 65-17 Los Angeles Lakers 1986-87 Won NBA Championship
0.793 65-17 Los Angeles Lakers 2008-09 Won NBA Championship
0.787 59-16 Boston Celtics 1959-60 Won NBA Championship
0.780 64-18 Seattle SuperSonics 1995-96 Lost NBA Finals
0.780 64-18 Utah Jazz 1996-97 Lost NBA Finals
0.780 64-18 Detroit Pistons 2005-06 Lost Eastern Conference Finals
0.775 62-18 Boston Celtics 1964-65 Won NBA Championship
0.768 63-19 Milwaukee Bucks 1971-72 Lost Western Conference Finals
0.768 63-19 Boston Celtics 1981-82 Lost Eastern Conference Finals
0.768 63-19 Boston Celtics 1984-85 Lost NBA Finals
0.768 63-19 Detroit Pistons 1988-89 Won NBA Championship
0.768 63-19 Los Angeles Lakers 1989-90 Lost Western Conference Semi-Finals
0.768 63-19 Portland Trail Blazers 1990-91 Lost Western Conference Finals
0.768 63-19 Seattle SuperSonics 1993-94 Lost Western Conference 1st Round
0.768 63-19 San Antonio Spurs 2005-06 Lost Western Conference Semi-Finals
0.756 62-20 Philadelphia 76ers 1967-68 Lost Eastern Division Finals
0.756 62-20 Boston Celtics 1980-81 Won NBA Championship
0.756 62-20 Philadelphia 76ers 1980-81 Lost Eastern Conference Finals
0.756 62-20 Boston Celtics 1983-84 Won NBA Championship
0.756 62-20 Los Angeles Lakers 1984-85 Won NBA Championship
0.756 62-20 Los Angeles Lakers 1985-86 Lost Western Conference Finals
0.756 62-20 Los Angeles Lakers 1987-88 Won NBA Championship
0.756 62-20 Phoenix Suns 1992-93 Lost NBA Finals
0.756 62-20 San Antonio Spurs 1994-95 Lost Western Conference Finals
0.756 62-20 Chicago Bulls 1997-98 Won NBA Championship
0.756 62-20 Utah Jazz 1997-98 Lost NBA Finals
0.756 62-20 Phoenix Suns 2004-05 Lost Western Conference Finals
0.756 62-20 Boston Celtics 2008-09 Lost Eastern Conference Semifinals

[Lethal Vertical]

Thanks Hoffa.

So in terms of 62 plus wins: in 2008-09, 3 teams. And 2 teams in 05-06, 97-98, 96-97, 95-96, 85-86, 84-85 and 71-72.

That record could very easily get broken. There could quite conceivably be 4 or 5 teams winning 62 plus games this year.

The same teams as last year should repeat- Boston, Cavs and Lakers- and a few other teams might make it too, with the Spurs looking like a very good chance, whilst the Mavs and Magic are two other possibilities.

[Cussy]

That's not the question he was asking. He wants to know how many teams in any one season have won more than 60 games. If Madcat could do a pivot table sorted by year first, and then number of wins, then we'd have an answer.

[Lethal Vertical]

Yeah that's true. But I just manually added them.

Although 60 is probably the less glamorous indicator. 65 is where the really really elite teams come in, the once-every-few-years (historically, anyway) teams. But this year there could potentially be 4 or 5. Statistically that would be very freaky, and it would provide an indication of how good the best teams are right now. And how many very-good teams are in the league at the same time.

The good thing for us is- they all have to play each other :)

[Hoffa]

That's not the question he was asking. He wants to know how many teams in any one season have won more than 60 games. If Madcat could do a pivot table sorted by year first, and then number of wins, then we'd have an answer.

Pct Record Team Season Postseason Results
0.817 49-11 Washington Capitols 1946-47 Lost Semi-Finals

0.797 51-13 Syracuse Nationals 1949-50 Lost NBA Finals

0.787 59-16 Boston Celtics 1959-60 Won NBA Championship

0.775 62-18 Boston Celtics 1964-65 Won NBA Championship

0.840 68-13 Philadelphia 76ers 1966-67 Won NBA Championship

0.756 62-20 Philadelphia 76ers 1967-68 Lost Eastern Division Finals

0.805 66-16 Milwaukee Bucks 1970-71 Won NBA Championship

0.841 69-13 Los Angeles Lakers 1971-72 Won NBA Championship
0.768 63-19 Milwaukee Bucks 1971-72 Lost Western Conference Finals

0.829 68-14 Boston Celtics 1972-73 Lost Eastern Conference Finals

0.756 62-20 Boston Celtics 1980-81 Won NBA Championship
0.756 62-20 Philadelphia 76ers 1980-81 Lost Eastern Conference Finals

0.768 63-19 Boston Celtics 1981-82 Lost Eastern Conference Finals

0.793 65-17 Philadelphia 76ers 1982-83 Won NBA Championship

0.756 62-20 Boston Celtics 1983-84 Won NBA Championship

0.768 63-19 Boston Celtics 1984-85 Lost NBA Finals
0.756 62-20 Los Angeles Lakers 1984-85 Won NBA Championship

0.817 67-15 Boston Celtics 1985-86 Won NBA Championship
0.756 62-20 Los Angeles Lakers 1985-86 Lost Western Conference Finals

0.793 65-17 Los Angeles Lakers 1986-87 Won NBA Championship

0.756 62-20 Los Angeles Lakers 1987-88 Won NBA Championship

0.768 63-19 Detroit Pistons 1988-89 Won NBA Championship

0.768 63-19 Los Angeles Lakers 1989-90 Lost Western Conference Semi-Finals

0.768 63-19 Portland Trail Blazers 1990-91 Lost Western Conference Finals

0.817 67-15 Chicago Bulls 1991-92 Won NBA Championship

0.756 62-20 Phoenix Suns 1992-93 Lost NBA Finals

0.768 63-19 Seattle SuperSonics 1993-94 Lost Western Conference 1st Round

0.756 62-20 San Antonio Spurs 1994-95 Lost Western Conference Finals

0.878 72-10 Chicago Bulls 1995-96 Won NBA Championship
0.780 64-18 Seattle SuperSonics 1995-96 Lost NBA Finals

0.841 69-13 Chicago Bulls 1996-97 Won NBA Championship
0.780 64-18 Utah Jazz 1996-97 Lost NBA Finals

0.756 62-20 Chicago Bulls 1997-98 Won NBA Championship
0.756 62-20 Utah Jazz 1997-98 Lost NBA Finals

0.817 67-15 Los Angeles Lakers 1999-00 Won NBA Championship

0.756 62-20 Phoenix Suns 2004-05 Lost Western Conference Finals

0.780 64-18 Detroit Pistons 2005-06 Lost Eastern Conference Finals
0.768 63-19 San Antonio Spurs 2005-06 Lost Western Conference Semi-Finals

0.817 67-15 Dallas Mavericks 2006-07 Lost Western Conference 1st Round

0.805 66-16 Boston Celtics 2007-08 Won NBA Championship

0.805 66-16 Cleveland Cavaliers 2008-09 Lost Eastern Conference Finals
0.793 65-17 Los Angeles Lakers 2008-09 Won NBA Championship
0.756 62-20 Boston Celtics 2008-09 Lost Eastern Conference Semifinals

[AngusH]

The Cavs would have to be the early favourites now that they have sign Powe.

Powe isn't expected to be able to suit up until Feb. Still, good signing. It's 1.7m over 2 seasons - ie. the minimum - and it's team option for season #2. Basically, if he recovers completely, it's a bargain. If he is a shell of his former self, let him go.

[Da Houndawg #55]

So Hound and Angus, if the defensive teams are picked on reputation then how did Rondo get voted in? If it was based on reputation, you'd wouldn't see guys making it in their 3rd season.
What? 3 years isn't enough to develop a reputation..?

[Lethal Vertical]

2 years clearly isn't.

The point is, the selection of a guy who's so young dispels the idea that the team is based on past achievements. It makes it silly to suggest that Artest makes the team without still being a very good defender during the season in question.

[Clips]

Rasual Buttler to the Clippers for a future 2nd. Gives us depth at the 2/3 this season, and is $3.9M of cap next season. I'm pretty satisfied with our off season, but if we can get Sessions (rumors pointing to yes) and resign Steve Novak then I will be stoked.

[Da Houndawg #55]

2 years clearly isn't.

The point is, the selection of a guy who's so young dispels the idea that the team is based on past achievements. It makes it silly to suggest that Artest makes the team without still being a very good defender during the season in question.
Bollocks... Reputations can be made in 5 games... 2 years is more than enough.

[Clips]

Q on the move again, this time to Miami for Mark Blount. That's the 4th trade this off season. Poor guy.

[j-mac]

Rasual Buttler to the Clippers for a future 2nd. Gives us depth at the 2/3 this season, and is $3.9M of cap next season. I'm pretty satisfied with our off season, but if we can get Sessions (rumors pointing to yes) and resign Steve Novak then I will be stoked.

I believe Denver is very keen on Novak.

[Clips]

I hadn't heard that. I'm still pretty damn happy even if we don't resign Novak, but I hope he gets a gig some where.

Talk that we may trade the remaining $3.4M TPE from the Randolph trade and next years 1st round pick for S+T Sessions.

[The Glove]

its still the Clippers though.

Poor poor Blake Griffen.

[Clips]

Baron / Sessions / Collins
Gordon / Butler / Sessions
Thornton / Butler / Novak
Griffin / Smith / Novak
Kaman / Camby / Jordan

Regardless of the name on the shirt, our projected line ups are looking good for this season, good for the 2010 Free Agency madness, and good for years to come.

[DoubleA]

Baron / Sessions / Collins
Gordon / Butler / Sessions
Thornton / Butler / Novak
Griffin / Smith / MADSEN
Kaman / Camby / Jordan

Regardless of the name on the shirt, our projected line ups are looking good for this season, good for the 2010 Free Agency madness, and good for years to come.

This is more appropriate.

[Clips]

This is more appropriate.

I don't expect Madsen to make it to opening night, as has been suggested around Clippers forums. If we play a more up tempo game as has been suggested, Novak can fill time at the PF spot, as he did in parts last season.

[Da Houndawg #55]

I'd be surprised if Madsen made it to opening day, myself...

[Clips]

I saw a rumor BEFORE he was traded that he was to be released and would get a gig with the Lakers...

[Lethal Vertical]

The Celts sign Marquis Daniels.

Crazyness. The best teams just keep on getting better. Everything's gone the Celtic's way this offseason.

[Da Houndawg #55]

Voice(s), with hindsight d'ya reckon the Bulls were right to go with Rose over Beasley..? ;):p

[Clips]

Iverson to Memphis.

[Voice(s)]

Voice(s), with hindsight d'ya reckon the Bulls were right to go with Rose over Beasley..? ;):p

What you're not feelin SuperCoolBeas? ;) Nah yeah the Bulls quite clearly made the right choice. When there was talk of Riley possibly wanting to trade the #2 pick I thought it was the usual Riles trying to be a player and all that but supposedly he really wasn't that keen on "having" to take Beasley.

[Mad Mike]

Mavs signed James Singleton and waived Greg Buckner leaving them with 16 players on their roster; 1 more than is allowed when the season kicks off.

Jawai might be in line to be booted; along with Shawne Williams, Kris Humphries and Quinton Ross. If I was choosing the team, I think Kris Humphries gives you the least benefit of those players. Who knows what will happen with Nate.

[boz_novocastrian]

I agree Mad Mike. If you look at the current mavs roster, they have drew gooden and tim thomas who pretty much play the tweener forward role and a bit of center. quinton ross i say they will keep as they do not have many options at sg/sf.

but nivens is a 2nd round pick so i say he will be the one to go

[Voice(s)]

What actually works in Jawai's favour is the fact he's so cheap. I've read the Mavs have been trying to find ways of getting out from under Buckner's & Shawne Williams' contracts all off-season.

[Clips]

Mavs are apparently looking to trade Willams and Nate in a 2 for 1 trade.

[Tropo]

Nate is trying to obtain release from Dallas to go and play in Europe where he hopes to get more court time to improve his game/fitness.

[j-mac]

Flip Murray signed with Bobcats.

Confirmed Yao Ming will miss entire 2009/10 season.

David Lee re-signed with New York for 1 year.

[OKC Thunder]

O'Neal was unofficially 6 of 8 from the field, dropping at least four short jumpers and one layup when he got behind the Wine's defense. The 7-foot-1 big man is settling into his new home, but he's still learning about some of his new teammates.

When he checked in at the scorer's table during the second quarter, O'Neal wasn't sure whom he was replacing.

"I got the big kid," he said, pointing toward 7-foot-2 rookie center Luke Nevill (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4528321). "I don't know his name."